Suzy B Software 2/Suzy B Software CD-ROM 2 (1994).iso/extras/textfile/neo4_4/neo4_4.txt

Text File | 1995-04-27 | 139KB | 4,135 lines

=========================================================================
(C) 1994 by Atari Corporation, GEnie, and the Atari Roundtables. May
be reprinted only with this notice intact.  The Atari Roundtables on
GEnie are *official* information services of Atari Corporation. To sign
up for GEnie service, call (with modem) 800-638-8369.  Upon connection
type HHH (RETURN after that). Wait for the U#= prompt.Type XTX99437,GENIE
and press [RETURN]. The system will prompt you for your information.
==========================================================================
 ************
Topic 4         Wed Aug 17, 1994
GRIBNIF [Dan]                at 15:35 EDT
Sub: NeoDesk 4 - The Ultimate Desktop

Topic to discuss NeoDesk 4, the lastest version of the original desktop
replacement for Atari computers.
203 message(s) total.
 ************
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 1         Wed Aug 17, 1994
GRIBNIF [Dan]                at 15:36 EDT

I have just posted a demo version of NeoDesk 4 (NEO4DEMO.LZH), and a press
release describing the program (NEO4PRES.TXT).

Upgrades and other backorders are starting to ship now and, due to the volume,
may take 2-3 weeks to complete.


For Immediate Release                                              8/17/94
 ---------------------

    Gribnif Software is proud to announce the completion of the most
 recent upgrade to the original desktop replacement for Atari computers,
 NeoDesk 4. The wait is finally over.

    NeoDesk has hundreds of features, so here are just some of the more
 popular ones in the new version:

  o A completely new "look and feel", including 3D windows, enhanced dialog
    handling, and the ability to have multiple dialogs open at once. All
    this works on any Atari computer with any ROM version.

  o Multicolored icons - each icon can have up to 16 colors, and can even
    appear completely different when selected.

  o Icon Editor - This multiple window Icon Editor lets you edit and modify
    custom icons for any file or folder. The editor can read many popular
    icon formats, including ones from other platforms!

  o Any Degas, Neochrome, Tiny, IMG, or BMP picture can be viewed (by
    double-clicking on it) or can be used as the desktop background.
    Desktop pictures can even be "tiled".

  o Each directory window has its own menu bar, making it much easier to
    find frequently used options.

  o Each window has its own "parent directory", Show Info, and trashcan
    icons.

  o Items can be selected from the keyboard, including a search mode.

  o File Groups - Now you can arrange commonly used programs and data files
    together in the same window, even when they are physically contained in
    drastically different locations! Their names can even be changed,
    using up to 20 characters.

  o Font Control - NeoDesk 4 gives you the power to redefine what fonts
    and point sizes are used within its windows, and even for the text
    underneath icons.

  o Disk copy, file operations, and floppy disk formatting can all occur
    "in the background", allowing you to use your computer for other tasks
    at the same time.

  o Search Files - Easily search your system for one or more files, based
    on their name, size, date, or attributes. A file group can even be
    created containing the results. This is just one example of the
    powerful Filtering options which are also available for file
    operations.

  o Compatible with all Atari computers, in all resolutions, including
    third-party graphics cards.

    NeoDesk 4 is available for just $69.95 plus $4.15 S&H. Owners of
 NeoDesk 3 can upgrade to the new version for $25 + $3 S&H by sending us
 both original NeoDesk 3 master disks. Backorders are being filled right
 now, and may take 2-3 weeks to complete.

(Shipping amounts listed apply to orders shipped within the USA only.
 Please contact us for other areas.)

  Gribnif Software
  P.O. Box 779
  Northampton, MA  01061-0779
  USA

  Voice:    [phone]
  Fax:      [phone]


Dan Wilga
 Gribnif Software
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Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 2         Sat Oct 08, 1994
M.POCHE [Mick]               at 00:25 CDT

Spud Boy,

1STVIEW is available in the library here (actually 1ST GUIDE, a close relative
I believe). File #33642.

View II is a commercial program available from It's All Relative.

- Mick (Who's off topic, but Al started it!)


 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 3         Sat Oct 08, 1994
J.BATES15 [JAB]              at 01:26 EDT

Dan,

Here's an interesting story on the Gadgets problem.  Just for fun I booted w/o
G to see what all the fuss was.  Before I got to the windows dialog, I opened
a window.  Only the right half had "window gadgets", no close box or the three
little boxes at the bottom.  No color either.  So I open the Windows dialog
and the Gadgets sub-dialog to find that the use system colors button is
marked.  I deselect it and get the choices in the window, re-select it and I
get system colors, just not the correct ones (or not all of them). Toggling
between these choices, sometimes the system color window would be all color,
sometimes just the top half colored, sometimes no color, while the deselected
mode would always give me the choices. Exiting this dialog and returning to
the desktop, the window had all the gadgets, colored in the incorrect system
color choice.  Reopening the windows dialog and Gadgets gave an 11 bomb error.
I think I win the bomb contest.  The bomb trap worked and dropped me back to
the Falcon desktop.  It's not a problem, I've finally adopted Geneva as a full
time thing.

Later,

JAB
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Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 4         Sat Oct 08, 1994
J.BLOCKUS [JACKIE]           at 01:53 PDT

Al,

Referring to the 1741 icon file, I keep getting a message that says: "There is
not enough free memory for this operation" AND "Error in .NIC file Format! As
much of the NIC file as possible has been read". SO I changed my JarXXX to
JAR300 and FOLDRXXX to FOLDR300 and rebooted.  I went into icon editor and
selected the .NIC file for the 1741 icons.  After a while, I DID get the file
to come up with 1731 icons.  10 missing or maybe there were exactly 1741
icons.  No matter. I did not get any ERROR message tho, great accomplishment
this time.  (no luck with AW/Geneva/Speed5 tho)



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Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 5         Sat Oct 08, 1994
DMJ [dmj]                    at 10:52 CDT

Spud Boy,

For more information on View II, please see CAT 2, TOP 6.  Thanks!

Jackie,

You should never need to set JARxxx as high as 300, although it doesn't
consume that much memory.  A setting of 30 is usually more than you will ever
need.

     ~dmj

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Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 6         Sat Oct 08, 1994
F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK]          at 12:43 CDT

Here's one to check out on a TT, NeoDesk4 with and without Geneva. Click on
'Desktop Notes' in the 'Desktop' menu. click OK, on my system I return to the
Desktop (Neodesk 4 v4.002), it will leave the 'Button' "Desktop Notes" on the
screen with the 'Settings' menu highlited. If I click it on it will bring up
the full dialog box again, if I click 'Cancel' returns to normal. This will
also clear (from the desktop) if I use the 'Shift, Alt, Undo'. Is this me,
system, or the 002 patch?

                                        Frank L



BTW This happens with and without external fonts.



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Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 7         Sat Oct 08, 1994
F.GORON [Frank]              at 16:12 EDT

Jackie & Al,

As a matter of fact, I also found 1731 icon, not 1741, forgot to mention that
last nite. Also as DMJ mentioned the JAR  prg doesn't need to be that high, in
fact in this case it might not be a factor at all.

Frank G
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 8         Sat Oct 08, 1994
A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt]       at 17:03 EDT

!stGuide is more advanced, but takes up a LOT more memory. 1stView is better
unless you want to install 1stGuide as the app that displays JPEGs when you
click on them, which is what I did.

I'll check the 1stView docs to see if I can send it up separately.

Jackie,

I hadn't thought of the possibility that opening a NIC file would use up some
of the folder pool. (Dan?)

My extra folders are set at 5,000, so I don't ever get that kind of message.

As dmj sez, JAR doesn't need to go very high. Mine is 20.

Al
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Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 9         Sat Oct 08, 1994
LYRE                         at 21:14 EDT

Jackie,

If I've been following this discussion correctly you're using a Falcon w/
14Mb. Anyway, just wanted to say that on my Mega ST2 with 120Mb HD I'm using
300 extra folders - and should probably have it set around 450.

If you've got 120Mb HD or more, you should consider raising the limit. If my
system is cutting it close, I'ld imagine yours may be closer if not over.
Particularly if you're running a multitasking system since you will
automatically end up with a lot of folder references (each program's default
path, multitasking paths & envirnoments, each program's
load/save/system/resource path, etc).

                                        Lyre

                                        8:16 pm, October 8, 1994

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Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 10        Sat Oct 08, 1994
T.PATRICK5 [Happy Hacker]    at 19:24 PDT

Greetings all...

Well, I just tried the Neo-4, release 002 upgrade and it seems to be better,
although not completely fixed, in regards to memory fragging.

Without Geneva I still boot with 2 blocks with 3.39MB free, and running a
program results in 5 blocks with 2.95MB free, but subsequent program runs does
NOT cause any further fragging (the 5 block frag remains unchanged).  The icon
editor still seems to be fragging, but I haven't played with it enough to see
if it's better or worse than before.

Oh, and although the initial frag leaves less free memory than Neo-3, I can
again run the program that broke under release 001 (because of fragmented
memory).

With Geneva PageStream still shreads memory badly though, even when set to
"single-tasking" with "Unload" on.  [sigh]  And quitting and re-running
Neodesk doesn't fix the frag any more (it used to)?

Thanks for the patch, Dan!!  Works much better with "Unload" now.

 Aloha, from the Happy Hacker! (Tim)
 ... FaST Technology Turbo25 inside!
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 11        Sun Oct 09, 1994
B.AEIN [B Man]               at 00:08 EDT

Dan,

What is the deal on a F030 in 4 color mode? Are you aware of the weird 3D
radio buttons in a dialog?  Should I send you a screen IMG to show you what I
mean?

I noticed that the Neocontrol no longer has a switch for the Blitter???

Keypress are still not being held on my falcon.

I have a macro that closes windows, but the same macro will not close a group
window.

Does Neo4 have routines to make the screen look like it is fading out when a
prg is launched, I see a weird flash as the neo launch's and returns from a
prg.

I would like to see an option for users that will allow a another dialog come
up when you copy/move.  This dialog would bypass the one with all the options
and display a smaller one that has COPY and Move as the main buttons, wit
maybe pause and in background as small buttons.  I miss Neo 3's simple
copy/move dialog and would like to have an option for it in 003.

Otherwise seems to be working good!

Bman
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Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 12        Sun Oct 09, 1994
M.RIVMAN1 [MATT]             at 02:02 EDT

Now _this_ is weird.

I just dragged two files to the TRASHCAN.ACC icon on my desktop, and they were
promptly removed from the drive window.  I closed the window and opened to the
TRASHCAN, select all, and delete permenantly.  All without a bomb.  (after
all, I did close the window first!)

However... and this is where it got weird...  after it deleted the files I got
a window'd dialog box on screen saying 'the operation you requested will be
added to the queue'.

I've _never_ seen that message before.  Anyway, it offered me only a 'cancel'
button which, when selected, did nothing and left the dialog box drawn
onscreen.  When I hit Return, the QUIT button from the TRASHCAN screen
appeared out of nowhere, but couldn't be selected.

I called the 'About NeoDesk' screen hoping when I clicked it away, the other
boxes would go too.  NOPE!  (by the by... I _did_ try having Neo4 do a screen
redraw.. that didn't do it either.)

When I 'clicked away' the Neo4 info screen, the standard Delete Item dialog
box appeared on screen!!  (To me, _that_ was the weird part!)

This has never happened before.  Any ideas?  Could the same problem that
causes me to bomb on first COLD boot, or boot OK but with screwey FAT's cause
this problem too?

Doubly weird... the next time I tried to delete something to the Neo4
trashcan, it was back to 2 bombs!  Ugh!

Matt



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Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 13        Sun Oct 09, 1994
D.HADLAND                    at 00:02 PDT

I would like to make a suggestion for the next upgrade. When highlighting a
file (in this case a Doc or Text), we can have a little box along with the
other boxes down to the left, to change to have the printer que accessed. That
way we can have the window full screen and still able to print small txt
files.
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 14        Sun Oct 09, 1994
A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt]       at 19:12 EDT

Frank and all,

When I counted the icons, I either included the default icons twice or was
napping. :-)

Al
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Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 15        Sun Oct 09, 1994
F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK]          at 18:44 CDT

Al, Dan, anyone,

Am I losing my mind or not. I don't think I was getting it before but when I
am booting and just as the 'Geneva' introduction box closes I get a very loud
"Bink" or bell or sound. I don't recall this from the past. This happens just
as the into box closes and now goes into the execution of Neo 4.

                                        Frank L

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Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 16        Sun Oct 09, 1994
G.LEONE [Gerry]              at 19:56 CDT

I have one minor suggestion for the next upgrade -- I'd love to see a "save"
option in the icon editor, so that I can easily save my work as I go.

Put that low on your priority list, Dan.

  -Gerry
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 17        Sun Oct 09, 1994
A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt]       at 22:19 EDT

Matt,

The dialog or alert that says that the operation will be added to the
queueueue (never could spell that word right!) pops up when you tell Neo to do
a file operation that cannot not be accomplished at that time because it is
already doing a file operation.

All of us beta testers messed up royally on the current release, which has
some bugs. Maybe we just got lazy, but my honest thought is that we kept
seeing Dan improve it so steadily that we made an assumption that the latest
one didn't need as thorough a checkout. I remember well how a friend of mine
who is an Atari developer had a dozen folks wring everything possible out of
his new software, then put it on sale. On the first day of a show, when dozens
were watching, a fellow programmer stopped by and crashed the program with one
keystroke. He pressed the Help key while the Help window was open.

Nobody in the beta group had tried that. :-)

D.H.,

That's what STeno is for. :-) I find STeno indispensible when working with
NeoDesk, and the fact that I can drag a text to the icon of a DA (STeno) and
have it pop open is a joy. If the STeno window is already open and I drag a
new text to its icon, STeno's window contents change to the new text --
intuitive, easy and so very helpful.

Al
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Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 18        Sun Oct 09, 1994
C.NICHOLLS [BILL]            at 21:46 PDT

With earlier versions of Neo, I used to use the little barrel icon for the Neo
trashcan, to distinguish it from the regular desktop one. Now with Neo4 002 I
find this icon is labelled Group and doesn't have a template for its title, so
that I can't rename it. How can I get my old recoverable trashcan icon back?
Oh, I see, No sooner had I written my message than I went to the manual, and
though I didn't find it altogether clear, I created an icon, dragged my barrel
to it, found a template for the name and renamed it. My barrel is back.I shall
have to use something else for the group icon, which I haven't made use of
yet. I'll post anyway in case my experience is of use to anyone else.

Bill

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Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 19        Mon Oct 10, 1994
A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt]       at 06:14 EDT

Gerry,

You get a SAVE option in the icon editor if you work on a NIC file that is NOT
the neoicons.nic that appears as the default. (The icon icon, if I am saying
this right.) Just copy the default icons to another name and work on that file
instaed.

Al
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Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 20        Mon Oct 10, 1994
A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt]       at 06:51 EDT

Bill,

I sent a lot of icons up here. The Group icon in my "buttons" icons is very
nice. :-)

Al
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Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 21        Mon Oct 10, 1994
C.BINCKLEY [-- Chuck --]     at 04:45 PDT

Dan,

The fonts in question have names longer than 32 characters, like "Fixed Pitch
Courier 810 Bold Italic" and Geometric Slabserif 712 Bold Italic" (both are
Bitstream Speedo fonts), so I assume they're causing some conflict with your
methods. Also, clicking and holding the mouse button down on the font name
didn't help, but I figured out that if I move the mouse out of the font list
before I let go of the button, no font would be selected. The annoying thing
is that once I pop up the list, if I want to scroll through it to find a font,
I have to make sure I don't let go of the mouse button until I get to the font
I want - I'll either get the wrong font, or the popup will close and I'll have
to scroll through the whole list again!

Hope you can get this cleaned up for the next update (whenever)... Thanks! --
Chuck --

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Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 22        Mon Oct 10, 1994
G.LEONE [Gerry]              at 19:58 CDT

Al --

 >this right.) Just copy the default icons to another name and work on that
file
 >instaed.

Good idea (or should I say "idae"?), and that'll work.  I was just hoping for
something a little more elegant than "copy icon, work on icon, save icon, copy
new icon back."  No biggie, tho.

  -Gerry
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Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 23        Mon Oct 10, 1994
B.STRINGER                   at 22:26 EDT

Hi, please forgive me if this has already been addressed but I just downloaded
this topic and have not had a chance to read all the posts. I'm a registered
owner of Neodesk 3 and find your requirement of  sending in my old discs for
upgrading more than a bit of a pain. What's the point of registering when you
get treated like a pirate at upgrade time. I assure you that NONE of the PC
software companies I deal with have a similar policy. Even Codehead dropped
the requirement for their Warp 9 3.80 upgrades (which I also bought). Bringing
my old disks down to the post office requires a special trip and is an
inconvienence for your customers. Thank you for your consideration. Bruce J.
Stringer, M.D.
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 24        Mon Oct 10, 1994
G.LEONE [Gerry]              at 22:41 CDT

Bruce --

It really isn't my place to be making the arguments -- I'd say it was up to
Dan and the Gribnif folk -- but I do think you've overracting just a touch.

 >I assure you that NONE of the PC
 >software companies I deal with have a similar policy.

That's probably because ALL of the PC software companies can afford to lose a
sale -- or two... or a thousand --  to  pirates and still survive, making a
very comfortable living from the remainder.  I'm sure you know the Atari
market well enough to realize that most Atari programmers hardly make any
money at all for their efforts, and that every single sale counts.

Dan would've spent the same number of hours perfecting NeoDesk 4 for the PC as
he did for the Atari.  And he would have made 100 times the sales.

No one's calling you a pirate; no one's even accusing you of piracy. I'm sure
the requirement was made for people who aren't quite as honest and upstanding
as you.

 >Even Codehead dropped
 >the requirement for their Warp 9 3.80 upgrades (which I also bought).
Bringing
 >my old disks down to the post office requires a special trip and is an
 >inconvienence for your customers.

And if you read the Codehead topic closely at all, you also noticed that,
before they dropped the requirement, they stated OVER and OVER that you can
put your disks in a PLAIN white envelope, slap 2 or 3 stamps on them, and drop
them in a mailbox.  No trip to the post office.  No hassle, no bother.

Calm down, Bruce.  There are really BIG things in this world that you could
get angry about.  I don't think this is one.

  -Gerry
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Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 25        Tue Oct 11, 1994
LYRE                         at 01:14 EDT

Bruce,

I'll add one other comment to what Gerry has said. This being that when older
versions of software are still in the owner's possession, some of them have
sold those older versions to others.

Not that you'ld do that. But it has happened.

Additionally only having one copy of the disks prevents confusion as to which
disk is the most up to date.

                                        Lyre

                                        1:07 am, October 11, 1994

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Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 26        Tue Oct 11, 1994
GRIBNIF [Dan]                at 16:16 EDT

Dr. Stringer,

  I'm sorry you feel that way, but this has always been our policy, and is not
likely to change. Our intention is not to treat you personally as a pirate,
but to try to impress upon everyone that piracy (or reselling an old version
of a program that has been upgraded to a newer version, in this case) is very
detrimental to our business.

  When you have a market the size a PC software company does you can afford to
lose a much larger percentage to dishonesty, but when your already tiny market
is diminishing every day, you cannot.

  I also don't see why you need to go down to the post office. Just pop the
disks in a regular envelope with $.75 postage and leave it for the letter
carrier to pick up with the mail (s)he leaves for you tomorrow.

D.Hadland,

  I think you're asking for a printer icon in the loewer left of the window,
but I'm not sure. Is this correct? If so, I'll consider it.

Matt,

  I think you and everyone else should just give up on the trashcan for now. I
don't know why it still doesn't work, but I'll see if I can figure it out.

Bman,

  I've seen the weird radio buttons before, but I couldn't remember what video
mode it was in. Now that I know, I'll fix it. It probably needs to be fixed in
both Geneva and NeoDesk.

  The Falcon has a Blitter, but according to Keith Gerdes, who traced the ROM
code, it can't be turned off. That, combined with the fact that changing it
causes the ROMs to reset the color palette for some unknown reason, makes it
worthless to even try.

  Nope, there is nothing to cause the screen to flash when you run a program,
though perhaps it is because NeoDesk tries to save and restore the color
palette? I'll see if setting the colors to their current values again causes
this.

  The rest I will look at.

Al & Jackie,

  Opening a NIC file doesn't technically use up the folder pool, though
depending on your system's configuration, it can take up memory descriptors
(which are taken by GEMDOS from the same place as the folder descriptors) when
you open a NIC file with lots of icons.

JAB,

  I am already aware of the problems with the Gadgets dialog.

Frank L,

  Could you be a little more specific? I'm not sure I understand what you are
saying doesn't look right.

  I'll see if I can duplicate the problem you are having with the Desktop
dialog. Don't worry, it's just cosmetic.

  I definitely think you are losing your mind <smile>. There's nothing in
NeoDesk that uses the sound chip, except for the control panel which sets the
master volume, and I've not heard anything like that here.

Jeff W,

  I thought that most of the memory fragmentation was gone, but I'll see if
more can be done with respect to the icon editor.

Gerry,

  Everything should work fine in general, it's just a few specific problems
that people have run into so far (mostly the recoverable trashcan and opening
the Gadgets dialog a second time.)

  If you really want to save as you go, just open C:\NEODESK4\NEOICONS.NIC
(instead of using the NeoDesk Icons icon) and that will give you a Save
button. Just don't change anything in the NeoDesk Icons window, or you'll end
up saving it on top of your changes to the other reference to the same file!

Frank G,

  Other people have noticed problems with creating new rezes in the icon
editor, too. I need to look at it again.

  When Geneva is running, you should use WCOLORS.CPX (or equivalent) to set
the colors. In fact, if you do this and then save INF, the current window
colors will be saved and then later used by NeoDesk when you run without
Geneva. Just make sure to set the colors in WCOLORS before running NeoDesk.

Chuck,

  Thanks, but I already know exactly what is wrong with the Gadgets dialog.
The only thing you can do right now is to quit after using it (or just not
open it a second time.) Otherwise, there is a pretty good chance you will have
weird things happening.

  I'll take a look at the thing you mention with the Memory dialog.

Dan
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Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 27        Tue Oct 11, 1994
F.GORON [Frank]              at 18:42 EDT

Dan,

Gotcha on the window color CPX thing.

Thanks

Frank
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 28        Tue Oct 11, 1994
A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt]       at 19:48 EDT

Gerrae <g>,

It's not a workaround; it's a way to save as you go along with your work.

Bruce,

You can mail your disks from any mailbox. Gribnif's NeoDesk in all its
versions is one of the most pirated pieces of software in the realm. All of us
legit owners pay for this, in ojne way or another. To expect Gribnif to ignore
piracy is nonsense.

Al
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 29        Tue Oct 11, 1994
M.RIVMAN1 [MATT]             at 21:49 EDT

Thanks Dan -

Yes, I've already stopped using the Recoverable Trashcan (boo-hoo), but I just
can't seem to bring myself to remove it's icon from my desktop, hence the
constant reminder.

Hey now... if your thinking about adding a printer icon to the lower left of
the window, what about making the trashcan there a user setable one...
Recoverable or not?

Just a thought.

Matt
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 30        Tue Oct 11, 1994
F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK]          at 21:48 CDT

Dan,

I realize that the Help reader in the desktop and dialoag etc is only
cosmetic, just thought you ought to know about it.

The problem of resolution and the desktop color is caused if the Desktop color
is chosen inside of the Icon Editor, and if this is a solid color, this is
then saved when you return to NeoDesk.

Now then, if you boot up or go into a 'Mono' configuration the screen will be
'Black', this is caused by not being to choose in the Icon Editor a mono
configuration as is the case with the icons. If I then go into the Icon Editor
and choose the the 'Color' and place a pattern to change the black to a grey,
you once again save when you move back to Neodesk. I now have a grey desktop.

I then will boot up or move into a different resolution with 16 colors I now
have a grey desktop with color icons, but I have lost my solid color desktop,
unless I go back into the Icon editor and choose my solid color again, and at
this point, the next time I move into a 'Mono' mode, I have a black desktop
again. (Catch 22 (G)).

The coarseness of the pattern or grey is no longer a problem as today the box
of 'Fluff' :-) (CDII)  arrived, much to my happiness, I am once again a happy
camper. My thanks to you for getting the CDII board squared away.

BTW - The 'Bink' I heard went away when I changed the Desktop color.

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 31        Tue Oct 11, 1994
MIKE-ALLEN [NM~SysOp]        at 23:03 EDT

Dan,

 >  The Falcon has a Blitter, but according to Keith Gerdes, who traced
 >the ROM code, it can't be turned off.

I believe that Atari stated, back in the days when they still talked with
their computer customers, that the BLiTTER in the F030 could not be turned off
because, among other things, it was being used for DMA data transfers to/from
the hard disk interfaces.  I would imagine that turning the BLiTTER off would
lead to many strange happenings!

        Mike Allen
        ST HelpDesk~Sysop

        Written: 8:09 PM Mountain Time
                 Tuesday, October 11, 1994

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 32        Tue Oct 11, 1994
F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK]          at 23:21 CDT

Dan,

I think I got the 'Mono' desktop squared away. I don't know what I did but at
least instead of the 'Black' desktop I get a 'white' by fooling around in the
Icon Editor with the 'blank' dialog switch. I think that now I'll let well
enough alone (G).

                                        Frank L

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 33        Wed Oct 12, 1994
M.POCHE [Mick]               at 00:15 CDT

Dan,

Here's a little cosmetic quirk I noticed.

In ST Medium resolution, in the NeoDesk Control Panel, when selecting CPU
speed (MegaSTe), the buttons in the dialog overlap a bit.

I prefer using XControl, but I figured I'd point this out.

- Mick

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 34        Wed Oct 12, 1994
T.CARMAN [Tom Carman]        at 00:00 MDT

Dan,

You may remember that when Neodesk 4 first came out some of us were having
problems with getting it to run properly with SETMOUSE.PRG.  I discovered that
if the SHELL statement was placed after the run
C:\GENEVA\SETMOUSE\SETMOUSE.PRG statement that everything booted fine.  At
that time (under release 001 of Neodesk 4) I was also booting with Neoqueue,
Taskman, Warp9cp, XCONTROL and a few AUTO folder programs.  Immediately after
boot-up an inspection of the memory revealed 3 blocks.

When I upgraded to release 002 I noticed that with no other changes I was now
getting 5 blocks of memory, so I started fiddling.  The results of my
investigation are these:

a) Using AUTOMOUSE.PRG, from the MOUSEKAMANIA II package, to set the
mouseshapes takes less memory and brings me back to only 3 blocks of memory
immediately after boot-up.

b) Using the NEOCNTRL.ACC in place of the XCONTROL.ACC while still using
SETMOUSE.PRG from the GEM.CNF file also cuts the number of memory blocks back
to 3.

c) Doing both of the above brings the number of memory blocks back to two, and
results in the largest overall memory saving.

Unfortunately I find I need the XCONTROL.ACC for its ability to handle CPX's.
The Clipboard.cpx, in particular, is essential.  I have not yet found another
way of setting the clipboard while using Neocntrl that did not result in
larger memory useage than using XCONTROL.ACC. The old CLIP.PRG does not work
properly with the programs I am using. I also use STraight Fax which requires
the use of a CPX. and SERIALFX.CPX is another.  So I guess I will have to live
with the larger memory consumption of XCONTROL and the greater number of
memory blocks.

I thought you might be interested in the effect of the above, particularly the
superior behaviour of AUTOMOUSE.PRG vs. SETMOUSE.PRG. Any savings in
fragmentation is a plus.

Tom Carman (The Sermonator)

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 35        Wed Oct 12, 1994
T.PATRICK5 [Happy Hacker]    at 00:38 PDT

Dan, Mike, Bman,

Re: Falcon Blitter can't be turned off...

Besides... why would you even WANT to turn the Falcon Blitter off? On the old
ST series there were a very few programs that didn't like the Blitter, it's
true, but anything that finicky certainly won't work on the Falcon, regardless
of the Blitter status.


Tom,

I'm using NeoControl and Xcontrol, and NINE other accessories as well as about
a dozen AUTO/TSR programs, and I only boot with 2 blocks?

That didn't change when I upgraded, so there's something in your system that's
adding the extras?  Do you run any of your CPXs as resident?  (Mine are all
non-resident.)  You might also try re-sorting your AUTO folder and
ACCessories.  Somtimes the order in which you run things can make a
difference.

My experience with Setmouse is that it did add an extra (small) block if run
from Geneva.  Maybe you could try having NeoDesk run it?

 Aloha, from the Happy Hacker! (Tim)
 ... FaST Technology Turbo25 inside!
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 36        Wed Oct 12, 1994
GRIBNIF [Dan]                at 13:03 EDT

Tom,

  Y'know, there's one thing I hadn't thought of before that you might want to
try. If you set SETMOUSE for single-tasking, and run it before NeoDesk, it
will return all of its memory before NeoDesk gets run, and this may help the
fragmentation.

Mick,

  Noted.

Dan
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 37        Wed Oct 12, 1994
A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt]       at 13:38 EDT

Matt,

In the meantime, there are other ways to create recoverable trash cans, one of
which is mentioned in "Secrets of NeoDesk." You may also want to look at Data
Rescue, which I am not suggesting as a replacement for Neo's recoverable trash
can, since they actually serve different purposes. Data Rescue is more
powerful and a system-wide method, working no matter how you delete (from the
item selector, for example).

Frank,

The Help function in the "About" display is fully functional.

Tom,

Xcontrol's toll on memory can be cut down if you make sure all the CPXes are
non-resident. They don't need to be. (As Tim points out...)

Al
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 38        Wed Oct 12, 1994
M.RIVMAN1 [MATT]             at 19:20 EDT

Oh yes, Al -

I'm quite familiar with the "Secrets of NeoDesk."  (Gee, what _was_ the name
of the guy who wrote that tome?) <G>  A lovely piece of work.

I have decided to keep a TRASH folder on the desktop, until Dan gets the
'real' recoverable working again.  I remember reading about Data Rescue when
it was introduced, may have downloaded the demo, but didn't keep it on the
system long.  I like NeoD's better.  For my uses, I kinda felt Keith's (?)
program was overkill.

Thanks,

Matt


 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 39        Wed Oct 12, 1994
G.LEONE [Gerry]              at 21:01 CDT

 >Xcontrol's toll on memory can be cut down if you make sure all the CPXes are
 >non-resident. They don't need to be. (As Tim points out...)

I know I know how to do this, but I just can't seem to find the drawer in my
mind that I put it in.

How DO you make sure that all CPXes are non-resident?

  -Gerry
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 40        Wed Oct 12, 1994
W.TURCZYNSK1 [Bill]          at 22:35 EDT

Gerry:

>How DO you make sure that all CPXes are non-resident?<

  Select your CPX Control Panel from your ACCs, you should have a CPX with a
big "?" with Configure, select it, open it.  At the top of the panel is a
window is a selector with arrows, select the CPX and you'll see the option for
resident or not, select what you want a save it. That's it!

BTW--> Get you latest Hacker?  I FAX'd them again and got a call from Dennie
Edwards.  If you want I'll Email the bad news?

[Bill]
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 41        Wed Oct 12, 1994
G.LEONE [Gerry]              at 22:08 CDT

Bill --

 >  Select your CPX Control Panel from your ACCs, you should have a CPX with a

Thanks for the info!

 >BTW--> Get you latest Hacker?  I FAX'd them again and got a call from Dennie
 >Edwards.  If you want I'll Email the bad news?

Got it... what're you referring to?  Ya, uh... email me the news.  I think.

  -Gerry
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 42        Wed Oct 12, 1994
A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt]       at 23:17 EDT

Dan,

Oooh, great tip! Utils like that just run once and do their thing (SETMOUSE),
so setting them to single-tasking is a neat hack.

Al
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 43        Thu Oct 13, 1994
Y.DUFRESNE [Papageno]        at 00:07 EDT

Sermonator:

I just ran some tests. The fact that SETMOUSE is set to run before the shell
command in the GEM.CNF causes NeoDesk to start before Setmouse terminates.
This will cause some fragmentation.

The best way to conteract this is to set SETMOUSE to singletasking in the Task
Manager. This will cause Geneva to wait until SETMOUSE terminates before
loading ND and thus allowing it to free some of its RAM before Neo is
allocated its own.

This is the results I got from my test:

SETMOUSE in SINGLE tasking:

   Biggest TT-RAM block: 15 465 424
   in 4 blocks

   Biggest ST-RAM block: 3 222 586
   in 3 blocks


SETMOUSE in MULTI tasking:

   Biggest TT-RAM block: 15 463 014
   in 5 blocks

   Biggest ST-RAM block: 3 222 330
   in 5 blocks

So, you will likely get about 3 kb more free ram <RRBG> if you singletask
SETMOUSE ;-)

<later>

DARN!!!  I just read Dan's post. I thought I was _SO_ bright...

Just a few minutes ago, I was trying to fill the outside of a great clip-art
of a plane I had to make it a watchable desktop. It's almost impossible to
make the fill paterns match in any software. I thought it'd be nice if the
desktop fill was still applied around a picture when it's centered... <pretty
please - no rush ;-) >

Yanick
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 44        Thu Oct 13, 1994
T.CARMAN [Tom Carman]        at 01:29 MDT

Happy Hacker, Dan, Al, and Papageno,

Setting SETMOUSE.PRG to singletask does eliminate some fragmentation, since
when I booted with it set to multitask and with XCONTROL on I would get 5
blocks of memory.  I still find, however, that AUTOMOUSE.PRG running in the
AUTO folder uses slightly less memory than SETMOUSE.PRG when all other factors
remain unchanged.

As for the behaviour of XCONTROL, I have all my CPXs set to be non-resident.
I have also tried resorting my AUTO folder and the order of my accessories.  I
even tried turning off all the settings in my ICDBOOT.SYS and removing my boot-
floppy with the boot-sector that kicks my Turbo25 into high gear (boot-sector
written by WRTBT504.PRG) and still I boot with 3 blocks if I am running
XCONTROL.ACC and NEOQUEUE.  I have noticed, however, that if I eliminate
NEOQUEUE or XCONTROL that comes down to 2 blocks.  The strange thing is that
if I run NEOCNTRL and NEOQUEUE I get 2 blocks.

Happy Hacker, Why would you want to run two Control panels at the same time?

Papageno, I notice you are running on a TT.  I have been doing this testing on
a MEGA ST with a Turbo25 accelerator.  I have a TT at the office and although
I have noticed different results there I have not had time to investigate that
fully.  The TT, since it has a 68030, will handle memory better, to my
understanding.  That may be partly responsible here.  I did wonder if XCONTROL
assigned a block of memory for the CPXs, but the extra block of memory only
seems to appear if I boot with NEOQUEUE, so that seems to blow that theory out
of the water.

All, This is not a serious problem, but I am trying to see what configuration
brings the least fragmentation upon bootup.  I also wanted Dan to be aware of
the behavior of SETMOUSE and its slightly higher memory requirements.  Thank
you for the tip about setting it to singletask.  I have made progress.  A
couple of days ago I was booting with 5 blocks of memory, now it is down to 3
and I know how to get it down to 2.  I'm simply wondering why the combination
of XCONTROL and NEOQUEUE produces that extra block.


 Tom Carman
 (The Sermonator)




 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 45        Thu Oct 13, 1994
T.PATRICK5 [Happy Hacker]    at 02:35 PDT

Tom,

I use NeoControl for the color, keyclick, mouse, etc., and Xcontrol for the
stuff NeoControl doesn't do.  I don't use any CPX that duplicates a function
of NeoControl.  I think I'm just using the Clipboard, Show Cookies, Printer
and Modem CPXs (not using NeoQueue because I have another spooler and they
don't get along).

That's the nice thing about Xcontrol... you can use as much, or as little as
you want.  Instead of renaming my CPXs to CPZ (or some other silly criptic
thing) I just have an ACTIVE.CPX folder, and an INACTIVE.CPX folder, and I
just move what I need where I need it.

 Aloha, from the Happy Hacker! (Tim)
 ... FaST Technology Turbo25 inside!

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 46        Thu Oct 13, 1994
A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt]       at 08:34 EDT

Keith's app is the only trashcan of its kind that works with DATAlited
partitions. It also maintains the RESCUE folder, so that stuff is killed off
by date and folder size.

And it's fully configurable. for anyone who is not using the Neo trashcan,
it's the only other choice.

I never leave the home row without it. :-)

Al
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 48        Thu Oct 13, 1994
GRIBNIF [Dan]                at 12:54 EDT

Tom,

  It all has to do with memory allocation, and who does what when. Probably,
were you to change the running order of your DA's you'd get different results.

Dan
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 49        Thu Oct 13, 1994
K.GERDES [TraceTech]         at 18:29 CDT

Mike Allen,

 >BLiTTER in the F030 could not be turned off because, among other
 >things, it was being used for DMA data transfers to/from the hard disk
 >interfaces.

At some point I think Atari Dev decided that the Blitter was better than the
(16 MHz) 030 for VDI use so they hardwired the Blitter ON.

AHDI has a flag for CPU or Blitter transfers.  IDE drive transfers on the
Falcon are handled by a tight CPU 'move.l' loop.  On the ST Book, AHDI uses
the Blitter.

It really is a neat trick to use the Blitter for DMA transfers!

 >I would imagine that turning the BLiTTER off would lead to many
 >strange happenings!

Actually you are just setting an option of whether or not to use the Blitter.
At the GEM Desktop on Mega's & STe's, think of this as a configuration flag
for drawing routines.  When you deselect the Blitter dropdown option (no
checkmark), things slowdown.  This particular option was removed in TOS4's
NewDesktop.


- Keith
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 50        Fri Oct 14, 1994
M.RIVMAN1 [MATT]             at 00:37 EDT

Dan -

Just a quick note which may already have been reported, and/or fixed:

I've been attempting to copy full partitions (6-15 megs) from one part. to
another in Neo4. (Neo4 run as shell with Geneva 003)

It no work-ee so good. <G>

Whether I drag and drop the partition icon or select all files and drag them
to the new partition I get bombed out after it has copied around 400 files.
Bounced back to the Geneva NoDesktop.

Do I need to set up some kind of NPI to access the extended argumeent passing
for multiple files, like the README (?) said re: TRASHCAN.NPG?

Thanks,

Matt
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 51        Fri Oct 14, 1994
M.POCHE [Mick]               at 00:22 CDT

Tim,

 >Instead of renaming my CPXs to CPZ (or some other silly criptic
 >thing) I just have an ACTIVE.CPX folder, and an INACTIVE.CPX folder, and I
 >just move what I need where I need it.

Why not just use the XControl panel to set the CPX's to active/inactive, then
have it re-load them?

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 52        Fri Oct 14, 1994
K.BALLANTYNE [Kit]           at 03:19 MDT

Dan,

        I just got NeoDesk 4 and happen to love it. Thanks for calling with
the answer to the loading problem I was having. Since that time I have been
using Neo and checking out every feature and reading the manual and just plain
having a whale of a time. Sure makes Geneva look and act better! This is the
best combo I have ever seen. The whole reason I am writing this note is to
compliment you and Gribniff on a truly excellent product. I'm doing this
because so many people have to write to you with problems or alleged bugs or
whatever and they (we) sometimes forget how powerful the product is, how much
we get out of it and what a great value for the money it is. So keep up the
extremely good work and I'll go back to play-testing it!


 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 53        Fri Oct 14, 1994
A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt]       at 08:35 EDT

Tim,

CPZ is hardly cryptic. :-)

Al
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 54        Fri Oct 14, 1994
GRIBNIF [Dan]                at 11:24 EDT

Everyone,

  A neat little trick when it comes to CPX's:

  I have a large number of CPX's (most of which I don't use except for
occasional testing) and I am often frustrated by the fact that the CPX's in
XCONTROL's activate/deactivate list are not in alphabetical order.

  So, I decided to force the CPX's I have into alphabetical order by moving
them all into NeoDesk's file clipboard, opening a window to the clipboard
(sorted by Name), selecting All, and then dragging them back to the CPX
directory. This rewrites them in alpha order.

Kit,

  Thanks for the kind words!

Matt,

  There is a problem I know of that can cause a crash if you get too many file
name conflicts during a single copy operation. Was this, perhaps, what you
were hitting? If not, then it may have been a 40-folder problem. I routinely
copy one HD partition to another by files and it so far has worked fine for
me.

  The trashcan can work with an NPI to pass multiple files to it, and if you
use the trashcan as an NPG, I suggest you use the NPI method. I'm doubting
that this has anything to do with the problems you are having using the
trashcan, though.

  If you have other TTP programs that can use extended argument passing (most
programs can't) then you can just turn that option on in the parameters for
Execution dialog when you go to run the TTP in question.

Dan
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 55        Fri Oct 14, 1994
A.PETRIE1 [Suzie/AL]         at 18:04 EDT

Dan:

I just got around to installing Neo4 overall it is quite nice, but I have some
Bitches and questions.

 1. I know piracy is a problem but with Geneva and neo4 both Prgs post
registration info at boot up with a couple seconds delay, several other progs
in my bootup also have delays built in. All these delays add up to a longer
boot time than needed. Maybe you could instead at some point in time just post
the registration info as part of the menu bar. If the programs are actually
doing something else during this delay time please accept my Apologies for
this minor gripe.

2. I use Xboot III as a boot manager, which although a Gribnif product could
be contributing or solving my problem. I am using a MSTE4 with tos 2.05. when
I try to change My resolutions using the video modes in Neo I also must change
the Inf file in Xboot or I get 3 bombs. At present to change color resolutions
I reboot and select a setup from Xboot without doing anything in Neo. When I
first got the MSTE you helped me get around a similar problem by deleting
either the Desktop info file or the Newdesk info file. Is this my problem
again, or will I always as long as I use Xboot have to select defferent setup
files to change resolution. Although I can be retrained, my wife would like it
to be back to where she just selects from neo to change resolutions. The
primary reason I want to keep the boot manager is often when I just want to
check aladdin for messages or something where I just want to do one thing
there is no need to multitask. I dont want to use the overhead Geneva
requires. Also my wife dosn't want to learn to close programs under Geneva and
complains about running out of Memory.

 Thanks AL P


 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 56        Fri Oct 14, 1994
R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson]    at 18:39 EDT

   With ALL the problems that are associated with changing resolutions
 form the desktop, why do people insist on doing it knowing it causes
 problems and then gripe about it. To get a good clean resolution
 change, you must reboot and select a setup to go to that resolution.
 Some programs (ACCs mainly) just cannot handle it.

   The above is not directed at any one person. It's just that it is
 well documented/known to be a problem but people insist on doing it
 and then gripe. A few more seconds isn't going to kill you. I just
 thought I would say something finally about this after years of
 reading about people having this problem, know what the problem is
 (the way they are doing things) and continue to gripe.

   There is a set of rules/patterns that you must follow. If you
 don't, then don't gripe when it doesn't work right.

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 57        Fri Oct 14, 1994
F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK]          at 18:21 CDT

Dan,

I also have experienced mass copy or move with many files sometimes will bomb
out back to the Geneva screen.

I'm stille getting a few macro messages the the screen has changed and FWIW
The Neocontrol screen saver will not enable with the CDII installed.

                                        Frank L
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 58        Fri Oct 14, 1994
A.PETRIE1 [Suzie/AL]         at 19:40 EDT


 >   With ALL the problems that are associated with changing resolutions
 > form the desktop, why do people insist on doing it knowing it causes
 > problems and then gripe about it.

Wayne:

 I'm not sure about the others, but having the options there at the desktop
sort of implies that it should work, and work right! Neodesk does it's own
reboot when you attempt to change resolutions and therefore should eliminate
problems with ACC's. The problem that I am having is more related to poor
handling of the various Inf files involved.

AL P
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 59        Fri Oct 14, 1994
Y.DUFRESNE [Papageno]        at 20:22 EDT

Tom,

Maybe you should stop worrying about 3 k worth of memory. The number of blocks
is not that important either. If you are to optimize this, do it for an
uptimum biggest block and not for a smallr number of blocks.

Yanick
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 60        Fri Oct 14, 1994
R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson]    at 22:03 EDT

 Al P.,
   It's not a problem with Neodesk. It's a problem with programs
 (ACCs) that goes back to TOS where TOS did not pass on the
 information to programs that a resolution change was about to take
 place. Since TOS did not pass on this information, programmers could
 not place code into their programs to check for this.

   This is the info I have. If it is incorrect, someone please correct
 me.

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 61        Fri Oct 14, 1994
K.SPRINGER1 [FROZEN NORTH]   at 19:38 PDT

AL P,

Well, making the very large assumption that Neo4, Geneva, and XBOOT do not
suffer any glitches that will cause failure, you should be able to select your
video mode resolution in Neo4 and make the swap painlessly w/XBOOT installed.

Frank L and I both have TT's and he was having the same or similar problem
with his.  Might I suggest you read the messages of......oh, last 2 weeks or
so of the XBOOT topic.  I reconnected my color monitor to my TT just play with
this, and now have all things set to change desktop rezzes just fine.

Ken S.
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 62        Fri Oct 14, 1994
M.RIVMAN1 [MATT]             at 23:10 EDT

Dan,

I don't know how the 'folders' are used, but I through ICD's boot software, I
have 200 folders added.  I would have thought this would be enough, but as I
said, I don't know.

I didn't hit _any_ name conflicts.  I had just re-formatted a new external HD
and was copying some existing partitions to it.  Worked fine from the GEM
desktop.

Guess I'll just allow it to slip into the First Boot catagory for now.  Use a
work around for large file moves, and fix it later. <G>

Thanks anyway,

Matt
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 63        Sat Oct 15, 1994
B.AEIN [B Man]               at 00:10 EDT

Dan,

On my F030 my blitter is currently turned off.  That is way I am seeing that
weird fade when I run a prg.  The blitter CAN be effected on the F030 because
I now need to run Gembench 3 to turn the blitter on.  Please look in to this
as I see a doubling in the blitting speed in Gembench when I turn the blitter
back on.  I can't seem to get the system to turn the Blitter bak on for good,
maybe I need to change the desktop.inf?

I would like to see features in Neo that do the following:

A way to move the window without having to grab the move bar, it would be
great if we could click in between icons to move the window. I would love to
see a way to put a pop-up menu in the window so that the window can be moved
and resized without doing it manual.

An option in Neo that allows the user to imitate shift-clicking without
holding down shift.  Sort of the way maxiFile allows one to select more than
one file at a time for file maintinence.  I guess if you could hold the right
button down to imitate the shift key that would be easy enough and not cause
problems with regular file selection.

                         What is it (feature):

This would allow one to click on a file at the desktop and it would allow one
to write a short description of what the file is and what other files it
belongs with.  It could be shown as part of the info at the bottom of the
window when this file is high lighted. This feature could be turned on and off
and it would load the info from the HD.

A System wide file would be used so that if a file is moved to a new HD
partition, Neodesk would still show info on it.

If the file has a name change, Neo would ask the user if they want Neo to copy
over it's original descripton or create a new one.

One would be able to search and sort this list to find certain files.

This is another way to sort files besides the regular attributes.

In a way this is like Maxifile 3's coments files, but it would be a hell of a
lot more powerful in that you could search and sort by this, and then move or
delete these files.


    It would be very nice if there was a feature in Neo that would allow
searching for words or strings in files.  I have seen utilites that will do
this, but we need this powerful feature in Neo so that we can Filter and move
these found files around.


Neo is not holding Keypress on my F030, has anyone else noticed that you
cannot run macros without waiting for the first macro to finish?

Thanks Bman


 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 64        Fri Oct 14, 1994
T.CARMAN [Tom Carman]        at 22:35 MDT

Papageno,

Who said anything about being worried.  I thought I clearly stated that this
was not a big problem, however, it is attention to detail and the small things
that has brought about some of the greatest discoveries in this world.  I have
an enquiring mind and I find it pays to ask questions.  With someone like Dan
around to answer I'd be a fool not to ask them.

I hope you didn't mistake my questions for pickiness.  Neodesk 4 is a great
product and Dan is making it better.  I love it.  I just like to know why
things do what they do.

 Tom Carman
 (The Sermonator)
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 65        Sat Oct 15, 1994
F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK]          at 00:57 CDT

Al P,

When using a TT there was no problem changing rez's while using
Geneva/NeoDesk, if you are having a problem changing rez's check out the ACC's
you running. If you are using a Graphics board you will not be able to change
rez's like a standard TT, in this case it will take a re-boot and choose the
rez with the graphics board software.

                                        Frank L

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 66        Fri Oct 14, 1994
J.YOUNG57 [AtariFan]         at 23:15 PDT

I guess this is a message to Gribnif Software.  I have decided to upgrade my
NeoDesk 3 to version 4, but I need the upgrade information such as price,
address, etc.  Thanks for your help.

<AtariFan> J.YOUNG57
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 67        Sat Oct 15, 1994
T.PATRICK5 [Happy Hacker]    at 00:00 PDT

Al P,

I don't understand your trouble?

If you are using a boot manager (X-Boot) you don't need to use the desk to
change resolution.  You just reboot and select a different configuration from
your boot manager.

In fact, you CAN'T change resolution using Neo's rebooting system, because
your boot manager re-writes the INF files every time you boot, so any change
Neo makes is lost.

Just set up different configurations for each resolution you use and install
them in X-Boot.... simple!

If you have GEneva or TOS-4 you can change resolution from Neo without
rebooting, but as Wayne said, you are asking for trouble! It's not Neo's fault
that many ACCessories are poorly written and can't handle rez changes.  The
option DOES work "right" if you are using properly written software, but
Gribnif has no control over your bad software habits.  *8^)

BTW, rez changes from the GEM desktop will crash as well with the wrong
ACCessories.  The problem is with the ACCessories, not Neo. Under Geneva/Neo-4
I run TEN desk accessories, and I can change rez just fine.

 Aloha, from the Happy Hacker! (Tim)
 ... FaST Technology Turbo25 inside!

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 68        Sat Oct 15, 1994
F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK]          at 12:18 CDT

Dan,

I have noticed that the 'Help' files within the 'Dialogs' have cosmetic
problems and cuts of the first few letters of the file and has problems with
placement of the reader while using the CDII card. I have not tried this in
all resolutions except my 800x608.

                                        Frank L


 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 69        Sat Oct 15, 1994
J.BLOCKUS [JACKIE]           at 10:26 PDT

I tried to print the screen by going to File Menu...  Print Desktop... NOTHING
happens. I read the manual and there are no detailed setups. So I selected
"Print Desktop" and nothing happened.  Any suggestions and ideas?

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 70        Sat Oct 15, 1994
A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt]       at 13:43 EDT

Ah, Dan Wilga, the *best* trick is simply to use the Reorder function and put
the CPXes in the order you WANT them to be in, not in alphanumerical order.
You only see the first four, so I've made sure that they are the NVDI CPX, a
calculator, the ADSCI CPX and the STFAX CPX.

Wayne,

I'm with you. I've owned 16/32bit Ataris since '85, and have never switched
resolutions without rebooting.

Frank,

Dan says BLANK.PRG will let the CDII screen respond to the screen saver, but
I've never gotten it to work. I may be doing something wrong.

Al
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 71        Sat Oct 15, 1994
F.GORON [Frank]              at 16:30 EDT

Has anyone tried changing Video Modes (with a Falcon, or with Geneva) with
Setmouse set up as a single-tasking app? I'm doing it on a TT 3.05 with
Geneva installed, and when the video mode change gets to reloading  Setmouse,
it hangs. I wonder if changing video modes with a single-tasking app is a
problem?

Frank G



 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 72        Sat Oct 15, 1994
F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK]          at 17:53 CDT

Al,

Just tried 'BLANK' in a number of locations in the "AUTO" folder, but like you
get nothing - Oh well - back to Daffy Duck walking across the screen (G). I
wonder about running 'BLANK' through Geneva's 'GEM.CNF file??Mmmmmmmmmm -
might give it a shot later.

                                        Frank L




 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 73        Sat Oct 15, 1994
A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt]       at 19:20 EDT

Tim is right. If you use a boot manager, reboot to change resolutions.

Al
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 74        Sat Oct 15, 1994
S.DEITZ [Steve]              at 19:51 EDT

Bman,

Try DCMSHIFT to map the right mouse button to any or all of the modifier keys.

                          ----STEVE----


 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 75        Sat Oct 15, 1994
K.SPRINGER1 [FROZEN NORTH]   at 17:41 PDT

Dan,

Has anyone reported any problems with a disappearing mouse that cannot be
restored when using Harleking 3 with Gen/Neo4?

If not, I'll do some playing around to try to determine exactly what steps
cause the problem.

Ken S.
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 76        Sat Oct 15, 1994
ST.WALLY [ _Wally_ ]         at 21:10 EDT

Howdy,

Jackie, I think you need to have the printer portion of Xcontrol configured
and active to print a screen.  Considering that folks are prolly using the Neo
Control Panel, you'd have to make sure the printer was configured through
that.  That's the first place I'd start.

If you are printing to a laser printer, you may need to add a form-feed to get
it out of the printer.


 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 77        Sat Oct 15, 1994
A.PETRIE1 [Suzie/AL]         at 22:11 EDT


 >If you use a boot manager, reboot to change resolutions.

 I know I should reboot to change resolutions. It's just that since early 1987
everybody in my family has been able to change rez from the desktop and
without any problems except loosing 32k every rez change. With the same setup
that I have now, only with Neo 3 installed we could change rez from the Neo
desktop, the system would reboot and come up in the desired rez with no
apparent problems. With Neo4 installed I must now reboot, wait for xboot to
show, up select the right setup, and away I go. But now I must explain to my
wife and son that this
 new and improved method of changing rez is a feature, not a fault.

AL P
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 78        Sun Oct 16, 1994
M.RIVMAN1 [MATT]             at 00:15 EDT

Al P. -

Can you set Xboot up so you can call it from the desktop?  MouseBoot will do
this.

That way, instead of hitting reset, and waiting for Xboot, the family could
say, click on it's icon on the desktop and then select the desired preset.
The machine will still reboot, but I guess I'm thinking that clicking on an
icon, is more like the menu pull down/mouse click their used to.

MouseBoot is in the lib's here on GEnie if you can't launch XBoot that way.

Matt

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 79        Sun Oct 16, 1994
F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK]          at 01:06 CDT

Al P.

You can execute XBOOT from the desktop and make your selection and it will do
everything for you. That is exactly the way I change rez usining a graphic
card.

                                        Frank L

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 80        Sun Oct 16, 1994
T.CARMAN [Tom Carman]        at 00:14 MDT

AL P,

I just tried the rez switch with my setup here and everything worked
flawlessly, just as you describe under NEO 3.  I am not using XBOOT, but I am
using MouseBoot 4.  When I switch rez from NEO 4 Mouseboot does not appear.
Neo reloads all the accessories, and switches to the new rez.  I'm not sure
what is causing your problem but try a little more experimentation.  Something
in your setup is amiss.

I was curious to see if running Mouseboot after Geneva and Neoload would make
any difference and I am afraid it didn't.  So the solution doesn't lie there.
I'm not a programmer, but I guess it is possible that XBOOT hooks into the
system differently than Mouseboot.  Perhaps Dan can shed some light on that.

 Tom Carman
 (The Sermonator)

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 81        Sat Oct 15, 1994
J.TOWLER1 [John]             at 23:59 PDT

Dan

I've found that the Neo Control Panel corner clock doesn't always come on when
I boot, even though I've saved the desktop file with the clock turned on. I am
using Superboot, which copies the desktop file to be used to the Neodesk
folder, but I've checked the files, and they show the clock listed, as below:

;Control: ampm,clock,save,mins,caches,repeat1,repeat2,click,bell, ;
mclick,floppyA,floppyB,volume/balance,treble/bass CONTROL 1 1 0 5 15 300 40 0
1 3 3 3 5152 102

Also, when you create a Program Info File, are the settings in that file used
everytime the program is run or do you have to run the program from the .NPI
file for those settings to be active. For instance, if I double click on a
.DOC file to run my word processor and load a document, will the settings in
the .NPI file be used?

- John

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 82        Sun Oct 16, 1994
T.PATRICK5 [Happy Hacker]    at 01:15 PDT

Jackie,

You need to give us more information... A LOT MORE INFORMATION!

What computer, what rezolution, what printer, and what software are you
running.

Print-Screen should work from any standard ST rezolution to a (9-pin) Dot-
Matrix printer (although you may need to set the line length to 960 for Epson
compatibles to get the whole screen).  For any non-standard set up you will
need to add a special printer driver.


John,

You must run the NPI file to get the options.  For your example, just install
the NPI file as your DOC application, instead of the program.

Don't know about the corner clock, but I'd suspect your boot manager is
overwriting your INF file with an older one that has the wrong options saved.
Try running without it and see if your problem goes away?


Frank,

The Falcon must be strange... SETMOUSE is a program, not an ACCessory, so it
shouldn't be reloaded be a rez change?  Or are you running it from someplace
other than the AUTO folder?

 Aloha, from the Happy Hacker! (Tim)
 ... FaST Technology Turbo25 inside!

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 83        Sun Oct 16, 1994
A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt]       at 06:57 EDT

Frank,

You can always just run SETMOUSE from the desktop after you change modes. I
don't have a Falcon so I can't replicate the problem you describe.

Frank,

I've tried BLANK in every which way but loose. Before Dawn came up the winner.
:-)

Al
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 84        Sun Oct 16, 1994
A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt]       at 07:44 EDT

Wally,

No, you don't need the Control Panel configuration. At least I don't. (Hmm,
maybe GEM-Spooler is handling that....)

Al P.,

Yep a feature. The point is, your boot manager won't do anything unless you
reboot.

Matt,

You're right. You could run XBoot and let IT reboot. I do this with my own
custom boot manager.

John,

What Tim sez is right. Just run the NPI.

Al
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 85        Sun Oct 16, 1994
L.BUDNICK [Lorne]            at 08:59 CDT

I don't know if this is a Neo4 or Geneva question, but it seems as though some
accessories require a 'double-click' to select a choice. Has anyone else
experienced this symptom? Not a big deal, but just wondered why this is
happening.

The 'datalite.acc' is an example of one such .acc that demostrates this
tendency consistently.

Lorne....

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 86        Sun Oct 16, 1994
A.PETRIE1 [Suzie/AL]         at 12:20 EDT

Matt:

Thanks Having the boot manager on the desktop seems to work fine, and seems to
be a viable compromise. Thanks!

AL P
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 87        Sun Oct 16, 1994
F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK]          at 12:17 CDT

Lorne,

If you are using Neo/Geneva or even Geneva alone, be sure and checkout which
method you are executing the ACC's, if you use the "Desk" option ACC's will
execute with one 'click', However if you use the "Taskman" menu you need to
double click. I'm not sure is this is an answer or not.

                                        Frank L

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 88        Sun Oct 16, 1994
F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK]          at 15:42 CDT

Dan, and to all others who think I have screw loose,

I mentioned awhile back, "I get a 'BinK' between Geneva and NeoDesk. My 'Bink'
is back, after disappearing a day later.

No problem tho' and I'm not loosing my mind, just getting forgetful, all you
have to do is wait until another day comes around that you don't have marked
as an important day in CAL63. &^%^$%^*(&* (G)

                                        Frank L

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 89        Sun Oct 16, 1994
MUSE [Tomas]                 at 14:56 PDT

Frank,
 If you do indeed find that you have a screw loose, you are required by
Oklahoma law to move to Southern California.  :-)

 ===Tomas===

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 90        Sun Oct 16, 1994
F.GORON [Frank]              at 19:10 EDT

Tim,

Setmouse is indeed a PRG, and I've been running it with a RUN statement in
Geneva's GEM.CNF file. And I never saw the Setmouse.prg name at the top of the
screen when booting up. BUT when I changed it to a single- tasker, based on
some folk's suggestions to do so to reduce memory fragmentation, the
Setmouse.prg filename DID appear at the top of the screen during bootup.  This
isn't a problem, but I did notice that when using the video mode option in
ND4, there was no problem changing rez with setmouse set up as a multi-tasker.
But when I changed it to a single-tasker, then the rez-changing stopped
working. And it would freeze at the point that Setmouse.prg's filename was
showing at the top of the screen. Hope this cleared up my earlier statement.

BTW this is on a TT, not a Falcon.

Frank G
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 91        Sun Oct 16, 1994
M.RIVMAN1 [MATT]             at 19:16 EDT

No prob, Al P. -

After all, that's what we're here for, isn't it? <G>

 -=-=-=-=-

Tomas -

Hiya bud!

Gee, that's a great law.  Good thing New York hasn't got one like it or 90% of
the populus would have to move!  (me, included!)

Thanks for the laugh,

Matt

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 92        Sun Oct 16, 1994
K.GERDES [TraceTech]         at 19:15 CDT

Bman,

 >On my F030 my blitter is currently turned off.  That is way I am
 >seeing that weird fade when I run a prg.  The blitter CAN be effected
 >on the F030 because I now need to run Gembench 3 to turn the blitter
 >on.  Please look in to this as I see a doubling in the blitting speed
 >in Gembench when I turn the blitter back on.

You are using NVDI, correct?  As an alternate VDI it could have an option to
use the Blitter or not use it.  I have assumed TOS4's VDI relies heavily on
the Blitter, so the XBIOS Blitter() call's "On/Off" option was forced 'On'.
NVDI can intercept that call and do what it wants.

 >I can't seem to get the system to turn the Blitter bak on for good,
 >maybe I need to change the desktop.inf?

If you copied the NEWDESK.INF -which has the Desktop's Blitter status flag-
from another computer, then I suppose it could enter into the picture.

I would check NVDI first.

You may want to uninstall NVDI and see what's up with the Blitter situation,
and then reinstall it and experiment.


- Keith
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 93        Sun Oct 16, 1994
ST.WALLY [ _Wally_ ]         at 20:52 EDT

Howdy,

Al,
 I almost hesitated even mentioning it, but I do know that you need the
Control Panel to do a screen print from the GEM desktop.  On NeoDesk, I'm not
sure how it's handled.  Something has to tell the system how, and where the
screen-image is going to be printed - that's for sure.  :-)

 Wally

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 94        Sun Oct 16, 1994
G.LEONE [Gerry]              at 20:14 CDT

Frank L

 >have to do is wait until another day comes around that you don't have marked
 >as an important day in CAL63. &^%^$%^*(&* (G)
 >
 >                                        Frank L

Geez am I glad you discovered the reason.  I was noticing the same thing --
sometimes I get the "bink," sometimes I don't.  Now I know why.  I think.

  -Gerry
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 95        Sun Oct 16, 1994
J.BATES15 [JAB]              at 23:41 EDT

Dan,

Here's an interesting feature.  When I create a macro and assign it a key, and
install, my Falcon will not run any macro from the keyboard.
 If I then open the execute macro dialog and run any macro from there, upon
returning to the desktop, Neo recognizes keyboard input for macros again.
Just thought you would like to know.

Later,

JAB
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 96        Sun Oct 16, 1994
H.WOLFE1 [Harvey]            at 23:45 EDT

 > Has anyone reported any problems with a disappearing mouse that cannot
 > be restored when using Harleking 3 with Gen/Neo4?

 Ken, this very annoying problem is due to something in the way Harlekin
 and Geneva interact.  As far as I know, it has nothing to do with Neodesk
 4, nor does it occur when Harlekin is running under ordinary TOS, nor does
 it occur with Geneva and any other programs.

 I've reported it to Gribnif, Oregon Research and to HiSoft, and hopefully
 the Harlekin programmer will eventually get around to doing something
 about it.

 At present, I have found that the easiest way of dealing with the problem
 is to run Geneva's HELP program whenever the mouse disappears.  However, I
 just noticed that Wally has Emailed a program to you that may be even more
 convenient to use.

 Harvey Wolfe
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 97        Sun Oct 16, 1994
F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK]          at 23:31 CDT

Tomas,

If I could afford it I would sure move back to that area, quakes and all (G).


Matt,

What are you trying say? Could be you want me further away than we are
already????? (G)

                                        Frank L




 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 98        Sun Oct 16, 1994
F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK]          at 23:47 CDT

Gerry,

Just think 'Bink' :-)......

                                        Frank L

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 99        Mon Oct 17, 1994
MUSE [Tomas]                 at 07:17 PDT

Frank,
 Come on out!  The Heck with the quakes, it's the absense of mosquitoes that
makes it for me.

 ===Tomas===

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 100       Mon Oct 17, 1994
GRIBNIF [Dan]                at 15:57 EDT

JAB,

  That's a really weird one. Do the keyboard equivalents for menus stop
working, too? How about things like Shift-C?

Lorne,

  Do you mean you have to double-click on a button in the DA's window, or that
a double-click is needed to open the DA in the first place? Does the button
select if you click once and hold the button down? If so, then I think 004 of
Geneva will fix this.

John T,

  Well, as far as the clock goes, I think the important thing is going to be
trying to narrow things down a little. When doesn't it come on? What set is
being loaded? Is there any chance that two copies of NEOCNTRL get run somehow?

  If you want the NPI's settings to take effect, you have to run the NPI not
the PRG. You can actually Install the NPI as an Application with the DOC
extension if you want.

Ken S,

  I'm not sure if it was you who mentioned it previously, but I know someone
did. Is it any specific series of actions, or does just opening it cause the
problem? Also, if you use Control-Shift-Alt-keypad period at NeoDesk, that
will turn it back on at least until you use Harlekin again.

Frank G,

  It shouldn't make any difference whether SETMOUSE (or any other application)
is single-tasking during a rez change. I more strongly suspect a rampant DA.

Jackie,

  Print Desktop just calls a built-in ROM routine, which is broken in some
resolutions on the Falcon. It also sometimes seems to stop working after a
resolution change. It's a bug in the ROMs, not NeoDesk. If you try Alt-Help,
that doesn't work, either.

J.Young,

  You can get NeoDesk by sending both of your original disks back to us,
 along with $25 + $3 S&H (in the US). We'll send you a completely new manual
(not an addendum) in return. Be sure to use this address:

  PO Box 779
  Northampton, MA 01061-0779

Bman,

  Well, if the Blitter is coming up turned off, then maybe it is your
NEWDESK.INF, as you suggested. Try deleting the one you have and rebooting.
Then create it again from scratch.

  The rest of your comments I'll consider. They're pretty major for right now,
though.

Frank L,

  NEOCNTRL's screen saver won't work with the CD II, that's right. Maybe I'll
get around to hacking that in sometime soon (it's not an easy thing to do.) I
never actually tried BLANK on the CD. I'm surprised it doesn't work...

  I'm going to need some more details about the help problem. I assume you
mean you selected the HELP button in the "Dailogs" dialog, right? Also, are
you using Geneva? Does the help viewer itself come up in a window, or a
dialog?

Al P,

  During the delays, both Geneva and NeoDesk are definitely doing something.
In the case of NeoDesk, it is decompressing quite a bit of code.

  If you have XBoot, and are not using Geneva, you should only use XBoot to
select the resolution. Changing this in NeoDesk will not have any effect
anyway, since XBoot will overwrite the change NeoDesk makes to
DESKTOP/NEWDESK.INF.

  However, if you have Geneva present you can change resolutions from NeoDesk
or the Task Manager. If you are getting a crash in this case, it is most
likely due to a desk accessory that does not like to be unloaded.

Dan
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 101       Mon Oct 17, 1994
F.GORON [Frank]              at 19:02 EDT

Dan,

I'm afraid it's not an acc that's causing the S-Ting Setmouse to hang during a
rez change. I tried it with :

Auto - Jar30,Geneva,Neoload

Accs - None

I disabled my INF,MAC,NOT, & NIC files to make sure one of them wasn't munged.

GEM.CNF - RUN setmouse, SHELL Neodesk.exe


and it still hangs on setmouse during a rez change. Any other suggestions?
Anyone else experience this?

Thanks

Frank G

PS: just in case I wasn't clear about it, setmouse does NOT hang during a rez
change when it's set for multi-tasking.

Frank

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 102       Mon Oct 17, 1994
L.BUDNICK [Lorne]            at 18:03 CDT

Frank,

Thanks for the reply. I tried it both ways with the results being equal. In
either case I require two clicks.

Oh well, like I said it is NO BIG DEAL.

Lorne....

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 103       Mon Oct 17, 1994
F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK]          at 20:05 CDT

Dan,

Any 'Help File' called from any dialog box will cause cosmetic problems with
the scroll bar. This includes the 'About NeoDesk' info file when you click on
the small button in lower RH corner.

The 'Desktop' item in the 'Settings' menu has the same problem as above. It
also has a problem after clicking the 'Desktop Notes...' button; clicking the
OK button returns you to desktop - 'Settings' designation in the menu bar says
highlited and the 'Desktop Notes...' button stays on the desktop- if you click
randomly around this you will eventualy click on another button from the
'Desktop' menu - if you click on 'Destop Notes...' while it is on the desktop,
it will bring this item back into view. If you 'Cancel' or if while on the
desktop use a S, Alt, Undo will do away with the highlited 'Settings' and
close out completely.

Pressing 'Help' brings up the help files with no problems cosmetic or
otherwise. Help files from all dialogs have the cosmetic problem with the
scroll bar on the right of the help screen.

All of the above was check out using Neodesk 4 with and without Geneva and in
TT Med and ST hi resolutions using the TT drivers and NVDI with SLCT_DEV.PRG
disabled, bypassing CDII.

800x608x16 and all other resolutions with the CDII all of the above takes
place, however, an added problem with the dialog help files occurs. the
'window' comes up flush top and to the left, but the 'Text Screen' will appear
to the right of the help screen covering the scroll bar to the right, also one
to three characters on the extreme left of the screen do not show. In a
Nutshell the Text screen does not align to the left inside of the Help window.
It appears to center left and right*. Top and bottom seem ok. The Help file
pulled up by using the 'Help" works good with no problems except when the
close gadget is clicked or the "Quit" menu item is clicked it does close but
flashes about twice.

I am also getting some "Desktop has changed" dialog boxes using macros to
execute a program. These were my original macros, should I try just re-create
them?

Sure hope the above is understandable.

 * Meaning centered left and right on the complete screen, in the middle left
and right. the top and bottom are ok.


 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 104       Mon Oct 17, 1994
G.LEONE [Gerry]              at 20:51 CDT

 > Come on out!  The Heck with the quakes, it's the absense of mosquitoes that
 >makes it for me.

Wait a sec here...

You guys get great weather all year, sun most days, and DON'T HAVE
MOSQUITOES??????

... aw man...

  -Gerry
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 105       Mon Oct 17, 1994
K.SPRINGER1 [FROZEN NORTH]   at 19:19 PDT

Harvey,

Thanks for the reply.  I won't waste a bunch of time sorting it out now.  Has
anyone responded to your report yet?

Wally did send me the file, but haven't tried it yet.


Dan,

It was Harvey Wolfe, as you know by now.

The Control-Shift-Alt-keypad period does _not_ work for me at Neodesk.  Which
is why I brought it up.  Usually, I just use 2 of the module that come with
Harlekin, the text editor, and the manager.  I call both of them with keyboard
macros, CTRL-keypad 1 and CTRL keypad 2 to be exact.  These macros are
Harlekin macros, as opposed to Neo4 macros (which I haven't figured out how to
make the modules come up directly, without going through the Harlekin window,
which I do not want) or Codekeys.

Ken S.


 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 106       Mon Oct 17, 1994
L.BUDNICK [Lorne]            at 22:29 CDT

Dan,

I think you have the double click situation that I raised nailed down. It is
when I am within the accessory window itself that I have found it necessary to
double-click.

After reading your message, I tried holding the button down with a single
click and that did in fact work.

Thanks,

Lorne....


 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 107       Mon Oct 17, 1994
M.POCHE [Mick]               at 22:36 CDT

Dan,

I think I've finally tracked down the problem with window dropdown menus not
responding.

It happens whenever I run a program set to single-tasking with a macro. If I
then switch over to NeoDesk, window dropdowns won't respond to mouse-clicks or
hotkeys. They drop down when selected, but clicking on the selections does
nothing.

If I run the same programs from a drive window or a group, the problem doesn't
appear.

As long as I don't switch to NeoDesk while the single-tasking program is
loaded, everything seems to be fine. Exiting the single-tasking program back
to ND seems fine too.

Hope that helps. Other than that little thing, I'm thrilled with ND4!

- Mick

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 108       Mon Oct 17, 1994
F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK]          at 22:53 CDT

Dan,

Re the previous post on the Dialog Help Cosmetic problems. I feel that these
problems are certainly not of such a nature that they take anything away from
this fine program. I mentioned them as a course of information and not
complaint. The main 'Help File' is always available and rock steady. After
reading your post again, I see I missed the 'Screen Saver' reference. I most
certainly can appreciate the "complexity" of trying to get Geneva and NeoDesk
coupled but to add the Crazy Dots graphics to these extremely powerful
programs is indeed a nightmare to write with complete compatibility. Nothing
in these 'small problems' that I or others could not work around with ease.

I, of course, know how you can accoplish so much in such a short time - good
thing you can Multi-Task now (G).

                                        Frank L


Tomas,

I just couldn't leave my Crickets all alone.

                                        Frank L

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 109       Mon Oct 17, 1994
F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK]          at 23:15 CDT

Mick,

I'm using a TT, CDII, Geneva, NeoDesk and I have not had any problems such as
you have mentioned. I run Aladdin with a 'Macro' then (off line of course)
click on 'NeoDesk' - use a 'Macro' to load Pagestream I can use all the menus
and load programs. Aladdin is 'Single tasking' while Pagestream is set to
Multi-Task. Unless I missed something I'm puzzled.

                                        Frank L

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 110       Tue Oct 18, 1994
J.BATES15 [JAB]              at 00:57 EDT

Dan,

It seems all keyboard input is blocked after creating a macro.  Shift
 - C did nothing.  For that matter, I can't use Control Esc to end the macro,
I have to go to the menu to end it.  They seem to work correctly after I run a
macro from the dialog, and they work right if I haven't created any new macros
this session.

Frank,

I'm seeing the Setmouse lockup on rez changes too.  I have it running as
singletasking before Neodesk in the Gem.cnf file.

Later,

JAB

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 111       Tue Oct 18, 1994
H.WOLFE1 [Harvey]            at 01:22 EDT

> Harvey, >  > Thanks for the reply.  I won't waste a bunch of time sorting it
out now.  Has > anyone responded to your report yet?

Ken, when I spoke to Oregon Research, they said that the report had been
forwarded to the programmer in Europe.

Harvey
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 112       Tue Oct 18, 1994
M.RIVMAN1 [MATT]             at 02:22 EDT

Frank L -

;^)

I know _you_ know I was joking, but for any who don't...  I didn't even
realize my post could have been taken _that_ way. (blush) I was making a snyde
comment on the state of the general populous here in N.Y. !

Frank... don't change (or move), 'babe', we love ya!  <G>

Matt


 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 113       Tue Oct 18, 1994
A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt]       at 08:39 EDT

Lorne,

DATAlite's manager, both as a DA and as a PRG, is one of those New Age German
apps that was programmed to respond to the left or right buttons in the same
way, even when the DL window is not in the foreground. Because Geneva already
offers this (as does MultiTOS) -- by holding down the right button, you can
operate a background window or dialog -- DATAlite seems to get confused. I've
gotten around this by using overkill of a sort. I always boot up with the DC
right-button utility (which turns a right click into a left double-click
unless the right button is held down a little longer than usual), and just
press the right button smartly; if DA doesn't see it as a left double-click,
it surely will see it as a right click, and it always responds.

BTW, that little utility is one of the finest pieces of freeware I know of.

Tomas,

But then they send you to Oregon. :-)

Wally,

Dag-nab it, I know you know that I know you know ... lost my train of thought
at the station there! Anyway, what I was thinking was that once the CP setting
for the printer is set, the INF file should contain it, and the CP wouldn't be
needed again for that setting. I think that's the way it should work....

Al
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 114       Tue Oct 18, 1994
L.BUDNICK [Lorne]            at 20:02 CDT

Thanks Al. The ability to simply hold down the mouse button until the dialog
is highlighted will work for me. This would seem to be a very minor
inconvenience. This is especially true since Dan has already indicated that
this situation will be resolved in the fairly near future.

Lorne....

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 115       Wed Oct 19, 1994
ST.WALLY [ _Wally_ ]         at 00:05 EDT

Howdy,

Al, dude!  I _never_ considered that...dag, the .INF file.
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 116       Tue Oct 18, 1994
MUSE [Tomas]                 at 23:28 PDT

Gerry,
 Fleas, we have fleas. :-(

Frank,
 <chirp-chirp>

Matt,
 There are "loose screws" all over the country and the world. Fortunately,
these people are usually caught and forced to run for public office.

 ===Tomas===



 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 117       Wed Oct 19, 1994
T.PATRICK5 [Happy Hacker]    at 02:19 PDT

Wally,

You most deffinately do NOT need the control panel to print the desktop from
GEM.  Just hit ALT-HELP.  You only need it if you are not using the printer
port for your printer.  I never used the control panel until recently, and
I've done hundreds of screen dumps, from GEM, NeoDesk, Programs, even GAMES!

Of course, you may not get a proper screen dump.  It's set up for an Atari
printer, which is a 9-pin dot-matrix with a line rezolution of 1280 dots.  An
Epson compatible will print, but the right edge gets cropped.  Lasers,
inkjets, etc. all require custom drivers (or Epson compatibility).

Al,

The CP settings are saved in NeoDesk's INF file and used by Neo, but GEM
requires the CP to use the settings.  Kind of a stupid design, really, the
settings get saved, but only the Control Panel can use 'em.

 Aloha, from the Happy Hacker! (Tim)
 ... FaST Technology Turbo25 inside!
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 118       Wed Oct 19, 1994
GRIBNIF [Dan]                at 12:17 EDT

Tim & Al,

  NeoDesk will set the printer settings if you have set them (using NEOQUEUE)
and then saved your INF file. You don't need to have any CP or even the queue
loaded after that.

  You also don't absolutely need any CP at all. However, as Tim points out,
the default line width for a screen dump is 1280 pixels, which is not all that
common, so you probably want to do something to set it to the smaller size.

  Jackie's problem is totally unrelated to this discussion, since it stems
from a bug in the Falcon TOS.

JAB,

  I only ever start/end macros with Control-Esc, so maybe it's the particular
sequence of things you are doing. How about if you just hit Control-Esc twice.
Does this work to give you an empty macro?

Mick,

  I just recorded a macro that runs a singletasking program, and then played
it and switched back to NeoDesk which it was still running. The window
dropdowns work fine. Might it be the particular app you are running this way?

Lorne,

  Then it's probably something that is specific (more or less) to that DA. I
have already made a change for Geneva 004 which should fix this type of thing
for programs that use it.

Frank L,

  My setup is almost identical to yours, and I've never seen that happen. I
even use NVDI. Do you have the help viewer set to use a font other than the
system font? Is it possible to move the viewer's window and have it start to
line up properly?

  You should probably re-create your 001 macros that are causing problems with
002, yes.

Frank G,

  Aha! I found a way to get it to happen. Yes, you will unfortunately, have to
restore SETMOUSE to multitasking if you want to change rez.

Dan
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 119       Wed Oct 19, 1994
F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK]          at 18:15 CDT

Matt,

All done tounge in cheeck :-).

                                        Frank L

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 120       Wed Oct 19, 1994
J.BATES15 [JAB]              at 20:36 EDT

Dan,

I can create an empty macro.  If I try to create a macro that runs a program,
the M in the menu bar disappears and the keyboard input is disabled.  I do use
the mouse to start my macro records.

Sorry to hear about the Setmouse thing, I have seen the same problem, though I
don't change rez very often.  Is it a fixable thing? (eventually?)

Later,

JAB
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 121       Wed Oct 19, 1994
G.LEONE [Gerry]              at 20:22 CDT

Thomas --

 > Fleas, we have fleas. :-(

So did we.  But they seemed to go away once we started bathing more
regularly...

  -Gerry
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 122       Wed Oct 19, 1994
F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK]          at 21:12 CDT

Dan,

The prblem with the Help files in the 'Dialogs' happens with or without NVDI.
It does not seem to a problem with NVDI. I am using 'System Fonts' only. The
"Settings" menu in the menu bar remains highlited and I am unable to move the
'Help' frame to try and align up with the 'Text'. I have also tried removing
all ACC's except "Taskman", as well all Auto Folder programs except what is
needed for Geneva, Neo and the system file FOLDR450.PRG. I have also tried
removing all font names from the ASSIGN.SYS file.

                                        Frank L

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 123       Wed Oct 19, 1994
B.AEIN [B Man]               at 22:56 EDT

Dan,

I am having the problem of Neo 4 making my windows snow white.  It would be
very nice to have 1 button that would set all the boarder and text colors
black.  I am manualy having to do a lot of clicking to get a window that I can
see the gadgets.  Clicking on use desktop color scheme does nothing to help
the situation.

Thanks Bman
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 124       Wed Oct 19, 1994
M.RIVMAN1 [MATT]             at 23:11 EDT

;^)

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 125       Wed Oct 19, 1994
F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK]          at 23:56 CDT

Dan,

I have completely created all of my macros again and now, a new crop of the
same message, some of the 'Desktop Changed' come up when I execute while some
come up with the message when I come back to the menu. All in all there are
more messages than ever. What can I possibly be doing wrong?

                                        Frank L




 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 126       Thu Oct 20, 1994
ST.WALLY [ _Wally_ ]         at 02:49 EDT

Howdy,

Happy Hacker, that's what I get for looking in the Atari manual. <grin>
Thanks for clearing it up for me.

 Best regards,
    Wally

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 127       Thu Oct 20, 1994
T.PATRICK5 [Happy Hacker]    at 00:59 PDT

Wally,

Hmmm... you read the manual, eh?  Don't think I've ever tried that!  *8^)

 Aloha, from the Happy Hacker! (Tim)
 ... FaST Technology Turbo25 inside!
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 128       Thu Oct 20, 1994
A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt]       at 09:16 EDT

Ben,

Re: windows turning white. Is this in monochrome mode? When you say you have
to do a lot of clicking to get a window that has visible gadgets, what are you
clicking?

It's possible when running in color to set the window gadgets to a color
scheme that produces the same color for foreground and background in the lower
left corner of Neo 4 windows, so the six little gadgets can't be seen. This
occurs because Neo 4 takes the color scheme for these gadgets from the color
scheme assigned to the close gadget, via WINCOLORS.CPX or its equivalent.

Frank,

I'd wonder if you have a mixed set of Neo 4 files. This macro behavior was
seen (or at least a similiar effect was seen) in early betas, but the current
version doesn't do that at all here, on both systems.

Al
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 129       Thu Oct 20, 1994
ST.WALLY [ _Wally_ ]         at 10:44 EDT

Howdy,

Tim,
  Yeah, I read it, and a sad day it was.  <grin>

 Wally

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 130       Thu Oct 20, 1994
F.GORON [Frank]              at 18:26 EDT

Dan,

Does that apply only to SETMOUSE, or all S-T'ing apps?

Thanks


Frank G

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 131       Thu Oct 20, 1994
F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK]          at 19:16 CDT

Al,

I don't understand what you mean by 'mixed set'. I have the same Macro's to
run in each resolution. Enlighten me Guy, I could have messed up.

                                        Frank L

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 132       Thu Oct 20, 1994
M.POCHE [Mick]               at 22:31 CDT

Ok Dan, or anyone else....

Here's what's happening with the window dropdowns:

I'm booting up with nothing but JAR20, Geneva 003, Task Manager ACC, and
NeoDesk 4 002 on a MSTE 4, TOS 2.05.

As soon as I get to ND, I run my macro to load Aladdin 1.62 (set to single-
tasking). Once in Aladdin, I switch to ND.

(Here's the newest discovery) If there was a window opened before loading
Aladdin, all of it's functions work perfectly. If I open a second window, its
dropdowns don't work (they drop, but the operations don't function). If I keep
trying the non-operational window's dropdowns, I will usually get a 2 bomb bus
error and ND will exit.

I should also note that I was wrong in saying that it only did this when
Aladdin is run from a macro. It happens when run from a window or desktop icon
too. I've also noticed the same problem when using other single-tasking
programs.

This is very repeatable for me. I hope that someone else can duplicate it so
I'll know it's not just me!

I know I'm not going crazy...... you can even ask the flying monkeys that are
sitting here on top of my monitor! They can tell ya... yeah..... they know me
well.... too well!!!!



 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 133       Fri Oct 21, 1994
J.TOWLER1 [John]             at 00:26 PDT

Dan,

Oops! I found the reason the corner clock wasn't coming on when the desktop
appeared (which was 100% of the time actually). I had an old version of the
control panel in my MultiDesk folder. When I put the new control panel in
there, as a resident DA of course, everything was fine. So NeoDesk 4 is
innocent; I just had a neuron misfire is all.

- John

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 134       Fri Oct 21, 1994
T.PATRICK5 [Happy Hacker]    at 03:50 PDT

Mick,

Sorry... works fine here.  I switch back and fourth between Neo-4 and Aladdin
in Geneva all the time, and the only problem is when I forget and run a second
single-tasking app.

 Aloha, from the Happy Hacker! (Tim)
 ... FaST Technology Turbo25 inside!

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 135       Fri Oct 21, 1994
A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt]       at 09:03 EDT

Frank,

I was thinking of a mixed set of RSC and executable files.

Al
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 136       Fri Oct 21, 1994
GRIBNIF [Dan]                at 13:24 EDT

Mick,

  Well I just tried yet again to reproduce this. Does it only happen with
Aladdin? I tried it with Arabesque as the program I ran, and things worked
fine.

Frank G,

  It would apply to any STing app run from GEM.CNF.

Frank L,

  After our conversation on the phone, I too was able to come up with a macro
that would give that message when it should not, so you are not alone. I'm
going to look into the cause.

JAB,

  I still don't have any ideas about the keyboard problem. Can anyone else get
this to happen?

  The setmouse thing will be fixed in Geneva 004.

Dan
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 137       Fri Oct 21, 1994
M.RIVMAN1 [MATT]             at 19:22 EDT

Mick,

I'm sorry too, but on my MSTe (4 meg, TOS 2.06, G, Neo4, and a host of
AUTO/ACC's) all dropdowns work fine.

Run Aladdin, (S/T) switch to NeoD and open two windows.  Everything works.
Same with 3 or 4 windows.

Matt
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 138       Fri Oct 21, 1994
F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK]          at 19:29 CDT

Al,

No, no mixed sets, all were in indiviual folders.

                                        Frank L


Dan,

I did notice that it seems that the macros giving the message were set to run
under Geneva's "Multi-Task". This does not mean that I was using more than one
at a time, just that they are set for Multitasking.

                                        Frank L

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 139       Fri Oct 21, 1994
MUSE [Tomas]                 at 19:12 PDT

Al, I tried your suggestion and renamed NeoDesk.EXE to .PRG and ran it from
Geneva, but it didn't help.  An alert pops up to say that NEOLOAD must be
present.

 ===Tomas===


 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 140       Sat Oct 22, 1994
M.POCHE [Mick]               at 00:47 CDT

Dan,

I've seen this problem happen with programs other than Aladdin. Don't remember
which I tried, but single-tasking seemed to be something they shared.

This is making me bonkers.... not the actual problem, but the fact that it's
only happening to me!!

I'm going to do the patch and installation over again very carefully. I was
careful the first time, but this time I'll throw in the 'very' to be on the
safe side.

(LATER..........)

Well, I started from scratch and re-patched ND and re-installed it. Ran
Aladdin, checked the windows in ND, etc. Same problem!

After doing some thinking, I decided to check into the possibility that ND
wasn't the culprit, which left Geneva as the only other thing that could be
causing this.

I replaced my GENEVA.CNF file with the one from my original disk (figuring
that since only programs set to single-tasking were causing this effect it
could be related to the CNF file), and guess what?

Yep, that did the trick! Window dropdowns all work fine now, and there's one
less flying monkey sitting on my monitor now! :)

Thanks to all for helping me with this, and I apologise to Dan for taking up
any of his time trying to track this down.

- Mick

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 141       Sat Oct 22, 1994
A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt]       at 09:21 EDT

Tomas,

I *did* get that to work some time back (NEODESK.EXE => PRG) but it may have
been working only if Neoload had been run once in the session.

Mick,

Glad to see you cured the problem.

Al
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 142       Sat Oct 22, 1994
A.PETRIE1 [Suzie/AL]         at 13:28 EDT

Sorry this is late but I was out of town for a week, putting Xboot on the med
rez desk top worked fine, but just now tried to click on Xboot from the low
rez desktop and got a rong rez message(requires 640x200 to run) so am close
enough for my needs but not perfect.

AL P
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 143       Sat Oct 22, 1994
K.SPRINGER1 [FROZEN NORTH]   at 12:31 PDT

Mick,

If it's any consolation, I've also had the Geneva.cnf file get munged.  Now
save a backup. <G>

Ken S.
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 144       Sat Oct 22, 1994
B.AEIN [B Man]               at 19:19 EDT

Al,

I am running on a color monitor, but all the window info is set to white.  I
have to manually use Neos window option to rest everything back to black so I
can see text and outlines.

I want a button that will set everything to black so I dont need to spend 10
mins making my system look normal again.

Thanks Bman
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 145       Sat Oct 22, 1994
J.BATES15 [JAB]              at 22:19 EDT

Hi Dan,

It seems that the keyboard gets blocked after several operations. When I open
the Desktop dialog and the desktop notes section and return to the desktop, I
can no longer click on the desktop and write a note.  All the keyboard macros
are also blocked.  If I then run a macro from the Menu, everything returns to
normal.  This is on a Falcon with Geneva, Speedo 5, SAM, Warp 9, and the usual
list of patch programs.

On another note, can you have the desktop note dialog show the sample on a
copy of the actual desktop set in the Neoicons.nic file? Showing it on the
default desktop fill pattern doesn't help me see what a chosen font will look
like on my desktop.

Later,

JAB
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 146       Sun Oct 23, 1994
M.RIVMAN1 [MATT]             at 00:04 EDT

Al P -

From low rez you (they) can hit CNTRL-ALT-DELETE and force a cold boot.  With
XBOOT in the AUTO folder, it should present itself again and you can make your
rez selection.  MouseBoot doesn't work in ST Low rez either.  I always reboot
to change out of it.

Oh - there is a  small program in the lib's here that will force a reboot.
(XAKRESET, I think.  search on reset or reboot?)  You could keep this on the
desktop too, if they still feel the need to point and click.  It's public
domain.  If you can't find one, let me know and I'll Email it to you.

Matt
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 147       Sat Oct 22, 1994
C.BINCKLEY [-- Chuck --]     at 22:02 PDT

Dan,

I've run into what appears to be a bug in ND4/002 - every time I try to copy a
file to the same directory the original is in, using the "rename destination"
function in the copy/move dialog, the file gets copied with the new name but
NeoDesk then bombs (2 bombs - bus error) and quits. This is on a MegaSTE4, TOS
2.06, running ND4/002 under Geneva with SpeedoGDOS5, Warp 9 3.80, and various
other accs and auto programs. I haven't tried it on a "clean" system yet, but
it seems to me that a simple copy function should be pretty much immune to any
software conflicts, other than major OS bugs. Oh, yeah, I'm also using ICDBOOT
6.5.5 on a 170 meg Quantum LPS SCSI drive.

If you are already aware of this, then I'll relax and avoid using this
particular function until the next update. Otherwise, I'll try it in a clean
setup and see if it still happens.

-- Chuck --

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 148       Sat Oct 22, 1994
C.BINCKLEY [-- Chuck --]     at 23:40 PDT

Dan,

I have the same problem with macros that Frank is having.  I recreated most of
my macros from scratch after installing ND4/002, and I still get the "Desktop
has changed" alert with several of them.

For example, I created macros to run Diamond Back 3 and Diamond Edge by
opening a window to the program file, starting the macro recording, run the
program by double-clicking on its icon, quit the program, end macro recording
and assign a hot key and name, and then install it. When I run the macro with
the hot key, I get the alert. Sometimes (depending on the macro) the alert
comes before the program starts up, sometimes it comes after I quit the
program.

And Al, I know for sure I don't have any mixed file versions, so I don't think
that's the problem.

Not a major problem, but quite a nuisance... -- Chuck --


 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 149       Sun Oct 23, 1994
A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt]       at 08:01 EDT

Ben,

Hmm, I suppose you could save an INF file that had the colors switched to what
you want, then create a macro that loaded that inf file. You make a macro do
that by starting the macro recorder, selecting the inf file, pressing control-
L, then ending the macro.

Al
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 150       Sun Oct 23, 1994
B.BEAUCHEA [Bob Beauchea]    at 16:20 EDT

Dan,

I finally got around to installing release 002 of Neodesk 4. First it fixes
the problem I had with the control panel and my Mega Ste. Thanks! But now I
get frequent bus errors (2 bombs) when I do file copies. They usally occur
when I have a duplicate file name and I get the dialog that allows me to
overwrite or skip. I click on Okay to overwrite the file and I frequently get
the bus error.

If you need more info on the problem ask. It happens often enough that I now
use another program for file copies.

Thanks, Bob Beauchea
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 151       Sun Oct 23, 1994
M.RIVMAN1 [MATT]             at 19:52 EDT

Chuck -

Try this to avoid the 'Desktop has changed' message.

Place the program you want to create the macro for on the desktop. Make sure
you have no open windows.

Start the macro recorder and dbl. click on the prg. icon to run it.

Exit the program and end your macro.  Remove the prg. icon from the desktop,
save your macro and voila!  It should run without the message.  It usually
works for me.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Al -

Re: your macro to load the alternate .INF file...

I haven't tried any chained macros in Neo4, and am too lazy to go back to the
manual!  Is this something that was fixed in Neo4?  I know under 3.04 I
couldn't create a macro that involved on of Neo's built in macros.  I would
get a message telling me something to the effect that the macro funtion was
busy, and can't be used to do what I'm asking!

Just curious...

Matt

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 152       Sun Oct 23, 1994
G.LEONE [Gerry]              at 20:23 CDT

 >Hmm, I suppose you could save an INF file that had the colors switched to
what
 >you want, then create a macro that loaded that inf file. You make a macro do

Yup, you sure can.  I've got 4 different INF files (depending on whether my
SyQ is connected to the system or not), and just to "flag" me that I've got a
different desktop active, I've changed the colors of each.  Works like a
charm.

  -Gerry
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 153       Mon Oct 24, 1994
J.BATES15 [JAB]              at 02:46 EDT

Chuck,

I accomplished the same thing without the desktop has changed message by
starting the macro record with no windows open, opening the appropriate
window, running the program, quitting the program, closing the window, and
ending macro record.  For edge, this drops me into Neo and I have to click on
the edge window to get the menu bar, a minor inconvenience to be sure.

Later,

JAB
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 154       Mon Oct 24, 1994
GRIBNIF [Dan]                at 12:43 EDT

Bob B,

  Yes, I'm aware of the problem with name conflicts. For me it happens after
the third conflict in the same operation, though that could vary.

Chuck,

  This is probably related to the same problem I've reproduced with respect to
getting several name conflicts during one operation. The point at which you
get the crash can be fairly random (for me, it is always after the third name
conflict.) For now, you may be able to improve things by going to dialogs not
in a window.

  As I told Frank, I already have a misbehaving macro file, so I will try to
fix that for the next version.

JAB,

  I have noticed that if you call up the Notes dialog and close it, the
Desktop dialog is not always redrawn. However, pressing Return to close it
(even though it is invisible) restores things to the way they should be. Note
that this only happens when dialogs are set NOT to display in a window.

Bman,

  If you set things the way you want and then save your INF file, the window
colors will stay that way from now on.

Dan
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 155       Mon Oct 24, 1994
A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt]       at 18:55 EDT

Matt,

Lots of rebooters in the libs -- or if they are not there, I'll send 'em up.

Chuck,

Try this copy function without Speedo loaded.

Al
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 156       Mon Oct 24, 1994
F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK]          at 19:59 CDT

Dan,

I just read your message to Chuck and to JAB, and thought I would try
something, in regards to the 'Help' files being called from the Dialog boxes
and the Desktop Notes button that was being left active on the screen.

I was using the 'Dialog Boxes' set to 'Not Show in window'. I enabled the
'Show in Window', and sure enough the 'Help' out of Dialog boxes is now OK and
all the text is aligned within the new Help Window, also the 'Desktop
Notes...' no longer remains on the screen and active. This ought to help
pinpoint to something.

                                        Frank L

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 157       Mon Oct 24, 1994
T.CARMAN [Tom Carman]        at 22:37 MDT

Dan,

Thank you for the message about disabling the setting, `Video from
Newdesk/Desktop.inf' in the Misc. Options of Task Manager.  This cured a
problem I was having of losing the colour on my Medium rez desktop after
having saved the desktop while in Mono.

I would like to know, however, if there is any way of having a pattern applied
to the colour desktop while in Medium and a solid colour while in Low rez.  I
have tried setting this up through the Icon Editor and whenever I set to a
solid colour in Low rez and then switch back to Medium my desktop has gone
black.

If this is a limitation of Neodesk 4 as it is currently written, is there any
chance you might change this in the future?  If it is not a limitation of the
program, what am I doing wrong?

 Tom Carman
 (The Sermonator)
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 158       Mon Oct 24, 1994
F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK]          at 23:54 CDT

Dan,

Some additional information on the Dialog Help situation.

If the mouse position is marked to 'Follow the mouse' and the 'Show in
Window'*is disabled, when the 'Dialogs' menu is enabled from the Settings menu
the frame will appear to the left while the Text will not follow the mouse,
causing the text to appear to the right of the Help frame. If the mouse is set
to "Center" then the Help frame or window will appear surrounding the text as
it should. In a nutshell the Text screen is not following the mouse as the
frame does, if set to follow the mouse.

If I keep the Show in Window in the Dialog box enabled all Help files run
fine.

* All refs shoudl be Display in Window not Show.

                                        Frank L


 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 159       Tue Oct 25, 1994
J.TURCOTTE [JARL T.]         at 21:26 MDT

Tom,

I don't know if this is the best way to have a pattern in medium and not in
color, but it is the way I do it for color and mono. I have a small img of the
pattern load in mono(tiled) and have the other backgroungs as solid. hope this
helps.

oh I would not worry to much about the too many fragments in memmory, You
might just get it down below 1 and then where would you be?

Jarl is out of here...
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 160       Wed Oct 26, 1994
B.AEIN [B Man]               at 00:48 EDT

Dan,

The Window info does not stay the same if you are using different Res's!  I
would just as soon do without this feature if I keep having to manually reset
this.

The blitter won't come on unless I run with the 01 Neo Control pannel, and I
can't get the desktop to save with this on.

Have you noticed the keypress's not being held?  Please look in to this.

thanks Bman

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 161       Wed Oct 26, 1994
GRIBNIF [Dan]                at 16:04 EDT

Bman,

  The window colors will stay as whatever you save them. Maybe you are using
the same INF file for more than one resolution? If you set it to "Use System
Colors" instead, it will use the settings in WCOLORS.CPX.

  I have no idea why you can't get the Blitter to stay on. It works fine on
both machines I have with Blitters. Might it be a screen accelerator, like
NVDI or Warp 9 that is affecting it?

  I plan to look into the thing you mention about keypresses.

Tom,

  You can either use Jarl's method of having an IMG of a pattern for one
resolution (and the usual icon editor-definable pattern for the other) or you
can use a boot manager to copy two different files for the different
resolutions over to NEOICONS.NIC. (This file contains the desktop pattern.)

Frank L,

  Ah, that makes more sense now. I'll look into that.

Dan
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 162       Wed Oct 26, 1994
B.AEIN [B Man]               at 19:53 EDT

Dan,

Could you put some logic in Neo that would automaticaly save desktop notes and
macros?

How about being able to load a txt file into notes on screen???

How about adding another dialog box like in Neo 3 for the copy/move option??
I hate the new dialog, its too small.

Thanks Bman


 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 163       Fri Oct 28, 1994
GRIBNIF [Dan]                at 11:45 EDT

Bman,

  I'll consider your suggestions.

Dan
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 164       Fri Oct 28, 1994
L.BUDNICK [Lorne]            at 20:38 CDT

Dan,

Is there a way in which to reset the paths of icons placed on the desktop?
I've gone through the manual but can't seem to find anything related to doing
so.

I've just recently moved a bunch of files to different partitions and would
like to just reset the path of the icons rather than having to clear and drag
from the new paths.

Thanks in advance,

Lorne....

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 165       Sat Oct 29, 1994
K.KESTANFORD                 at 02:46 EDT

I have enjoyed Neodesk 4 for over two weeks now. I haven't had any of the
numerous problems that have been posted here, but I have had one annoying
occurrence happen.  When I go into the memory drop down menu or pull files to
copy and it then goes to the screen where you can choose to copy or move, or
in GemView, I get continuous keyclicks coming in.  I hit a key and it stops
for a few seconds and then starts up again.  Any ideas?! I am using speedo
v.4, NVDI, Geneva and Neo4.  If I do not run Neo4, these problems completely
disappear.  Therefore I know that Neo4 is doing it.

Thanx. Please reply,          Ken S.
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 166       Sat Oct 29, 1994
T.PATRICK5 [Happy Hacker]    at 03:12 PDT

Lorne,

Just load your NeoDesk.INF file into a good test editor that can do ASCII
saves (like STeno), and use search and replace to change your icon paths.  I
do it all the time.

 Aloha, from the Happy Hacker! (Tim)
 ... FaST Technology Turbo25 inside!
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 167       Sat Oct 29, 1994
W.ORTIZ [Will]               at 11:32 EDT

  Just curious guys!

   How do I go about using those 1700 "GREAT" icons I recently D/L. They have
the .ICO extension and all I get is question marks.  Excuse my ignorance, but
I've been looking in the manual and it says it can read them.  I figure it's
the resolution but that's a guess.  Can anyone confirm?  Just curious.  I'm
running on a 1040 STe w/ Medium resolution (SC1224).

                                              Will


 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 168       Sat Oct 29, 1994
L.BUDNICK [Lorne]            at 10:58 CDT

Tim,

Thanks for the tip on changing the icon paths. I never really thought about
the .inf files being ascii. :^)

Lorne....

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 169       Sat Oct 29, 1994
A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt]       at 14:41 EDT

Lorne,

Yes, just pull up the INF file into a text editor WITH WORD WRAP OFF and
search & replace the old paths with the new ones. They're easy to spot. Keep a
backup of the INF file in case you mess up.

Ken Stanford,

What happens when Speedo is not part of the mix?

Will,

They are 16-color icons, that's why. :-) I mentioned that in my uoload
description.

Al
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 170       Sat Oct 29, 1994
F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK]          at 19:24 CDT

I a .NPI an executable file? I just noticed that it is not listed as such in
my NeoDesk .INF file.

                                        Frank L

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 171       Sun Oct 30, 1994
A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt]       at 11:09 EST

Frank,

An NPI is like a PIF under Windows. It's executable, but only because NeoDesk
already knows that what it does is pass parameters to an actual executable
file. No need to list it as executable.

Al
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 172       Sun Oct 30, 1994
D.MASON1 [DAVE]              at 13:27 EST


 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 173       Sun Oct 30, 1994
J.YOUNG57 [AtariFan]         at 10:52 PST

I just received my upgrade to NeoDesk 4.02 and have enjoyed using it, but am
having an apparent hardware clash.  I am using the Overscan board and when I
run Neodesk as the desktop, i.e. Not in a window, the boxes used to contain
the options in the menu bar (the ones that popdown) are too small to contain
the text.  This causes garbage to be left on the screen after the menu is
closed.  Apparently, it seems as if the program is using boxes that would be
appropriate in High-rez, but I am in Med-just at a higher resolution.  Also,
all dialogs are scrunched up (the text spacing looks like it thinks its in
high-rez).  As I had no problem using Overscan with NeoDesk3, I am looking for
 solution to this problem.  Any suggestions will be appreciated.

J.YOUNG57
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 174       Sun Oct 30, 1994
F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK]          at 17:47 CST

Al,

Ahha, thanks for the explanation of the .NPI file.

                                        Frank L

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 175       Mon Oct 31, 1994
GRIBNIF [Dan]                at 15:38 EST

AtariFan,

  That's odd. I just tried to simulate your setup by using NeoDesk on the
Crazy Dots at a resolution of 640 x 232, and it worked fine. What is the exact
resolution you end up in? Please also give me a list of what AUTO folder
programs and DA's you have.

Ken Kestanford,

  You are getting what is often called a "keyboard overrun". The actual reason
is pretty technical, but a list of all of your AUTO folder programs and DA's
would be very helpful.

Lorne,

  No, there's no easy way to do that, aside from editing your .INF file with a
text editor.

Dan
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 176       Mon Oct 31, 1994
D.MCANDREW [Simulator]       at 20:16 EST

Simulate??
  Did somebody call me?
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 177       Mon Oct 31, 1994
K.OLSON10 [KenO.]            at 21:06 EST

Hi!

When I boot my falcon with NEO4 I get "Illegal AES Function call" and then it
goes to the ATARI desktop If I then open my auto folder and dubc on NEO.prg
Neo runs.

I am running with no autos except UIS & no ACC's except the control panel

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 178       Tue Nov 01, 1994
A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt]       at 20:01 EST

No, we were stimulating, Sim.

Al
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 179       Tue Nov 01, 1994
J.YOUNG57 [AtariFan]         at 20:48 PST

Dan,

I am using Overscan at 752 x 240.

in my Auto folder I have Jar10.prg, Bigcooky.prg, SpeedoGDos, Warp9, Overscan,
Geneva, and Mkacc.

I have Tos 1.04, Geneva 1.01, Speedo 4.0, Warp 9 3.45 (I think), and NeoDesk
4.02.

Accessories I have are XControl, GemClipboard, and St-Guide.

Any help is appreciated...Thanks.

<AtariFan> JYOUNG57
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 180       Wed Nov 02, 1994
GRIBNIF [Dan]                at 12:28 EST

J.Young,

  Geneva is your problem. You should update to release 003 (version 1.02) by
using the patch program in the libraries. I should also warn you that you may
have some problems if the Speedo you have is 4.10 or older.

Ken O,

  The "Illegal AES function call" is because of the release 001 control panel
being used on a Falcon. Get the patch to 002.

  You should probably also look into getting NeoDesk to autorun, by following
the instructions on Page 7 of the manual.

Dan
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 181       Wed Nov 02, 1994
D.MCANDREW [Simulator]       at 18:19 EST

To: A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] Yes indeed. My boss always complains that no one
else in our orifice knows just how to do that! Office, that is.
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 182       Wed Nov 02, 1994
K.KESTANFORD                 at 22:49 EST

Keyboard Overrun!  Yep that about summarizes it.  I tried without speedo, or
NVDI or any thing else.  I am running Geneva and Neo4 on a Medusa, so perhaps
the problem lies somewhere in there!?  If you do not think so, any ideas.
Maybe some flag setting suggestions?

Thanx Thanx for the quick help...        Ken Stanford
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 183       Fri Nov 04, 1994
K.OLSON10 [KenO.]            at 06:53 EST

Hi!

Dan - Remember when a while ago I mentioned that I did not have pages 7 & 8 of
the manual & we tried the FAX route that did not work.  I still don't have
pages 7 & 8.

Could you please send them.  If you have them in text form you could send via
GEmail.

I do have 1.2 version of the control panel.

Thanks KenO. :)

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 184       Sat Nov 05, 1994
B.DEWITT [Perfesser]         at 09:22 MST

I have a little problem that has developed on my Falcon NeoDesk4 Desktop. I
don't know how it happened and I don't know how to resolve it. What I have is
this: three untitled versions of the floppy disk icon appeared over the top of
the official floppy disk icon. These three are exact copies of the original,
except they don't have a name or a letter. When I try to delete them by
dragging them to the Trashcan, NeoDesk informs me that they don't have a
proper icon letter identifier and refuses to remove them.

For the time being, I have dragged them to another part of the screen and have
saved the configuration so they are out of the way; but how can I get rid of
them, and what may have caused them to appear in the first place? Any
suggestions?

Th'Perfesser

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 185       Sat Nov 05, 1994
F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK]          at 12:04 CST

Perfessor,

Have you tried 'highlighting' then go to the pull down menu 'Install Icons'
and then click on 'Remove'?

I also beleive you can edit them out of the Neodesk.INF file.

                                        Frank L

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 186       Sat Nov 05, 1994
M.POCHE [Mick]               at 12:50 CST

Perfesser,

Try this:

Instead of dragging the mystery icons to the trashcan, select both of them and
use the Install Desktop Icon menu option under the Options dropdown, then
choose 'Remove'.

That should get rid of the icons, then make sure to save your configuration.

When you drag a drive icon to the trashcan, ND is trying to delete files from
the drive. Since your mystery icons don't represent real drives, ND can't do
anything with them.

- Mick

 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 187       Sun Nov 06, 1994
A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt]       at 11:47 EST

Perf,

Did you try using control-D to open the icon dialog after selecting them, and
then choosing Remove?

You can edit the INF file easily, using STeno or another ASCII editor with
word-wrap turned OFF. You'll see the entries for the icons all in one group,
and those should be easy to spot.

You just delete the lines.

Al
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 188       Sun Nov 06, 1994
B.STRINGER                   at 20:58 EST

Hi well I finally got NeoDesk 4 installed. I like it a lot. Can you comment on
the bombs that appear if any of the serial fix programs are loaded from the
auto folder? The bombs appear just as the  Neodesk greeting screen goes off.
Do I still need a serial fix auto prg? I'm running TOS 2.06 on a 4meg MSTE.
I'm also running with warp 9. Thanks Bruce J. Stringer, M.D.
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 189       Mon Nov 07, 1994
M.RIVMAN1 [MATT]             at 00:29 EST

Dr. Bruce -

I boot with Serial Fix from time to time and don't have any problem with
bombing.  This with Neo4 and Geneva on a MSTe 4 meg TOS 2.06, and a ton of
AUTO/ACC's.  What else do you boot up with?

Of course, as any who have followed my First Boot problems know, I've only
recently gotten back to this wonderful condition.  Hmmm, maybe I should try my
old, quick way of booting up and leave Serial Fix out of the loop.  I'll post
a report only if it works! <G>

Matt
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 190       Mon Nov 07, 1994
GRIBNIF [Dan]                at 19:00 EST

Bruce,

  NeoDesk does nothing to affect the serial port, in fact it never even looks
at it. I often use SERIALFX20 here with no problems. Perhaps a list of what
you have in your AUTO folder and what desk accessories you are running would
help us to diagnose the problem.

Ken O,

  Oh, I thought we had gotten this straightened out, but I guess not. Expect
something in the snail mail shortly.

Ken Stanford,

  It might have to do with Geneva, since there is a minor problem in 003 that
can make the keyboard overrun more prone to happen when lots of serial port
activity is occurring at the same time. Exactly what is in your AUTO folder in
a minimal configuration that still produces the overrun?

Dan
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 191       Mon Nov 07, 1994
B.AEIN [B Man]               at 23:37 EST

Hi Dan,

Any ETA on the next Neo4 upadate?

Is there any way to be able to add color to the txt display of files?

It would be real nice if I could say that any file ending in .PRG would show
as red in the window, thus making it stick out.

Is there any chance that you can make the file filter Dialog Bigger and with
more extensions and Bigger Buttons with Key equiv's?

I have a macro that closes windows, but if I have opened a group window, this
macro will not work on it?!?

Thanks Bman
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 192       Tue Nov 08, 1994
A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt]       at 03:56 EST

Bruce,

Serial Fix 2.0, FastSer and HSMODEM's suite of fixes all work fine under Neo 4
here.

Al
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 193       Tue Nov 08, 1994
J.WILSON103 [J_Dub]          at 08:16 CST

 I am a 'recent' procurer of both Geneva and Neo4.  While not having a
 lot of time to get them up and running 'properly', I do see the
 benefits that may be enjoyed once one is proficient.

 If I load either of these programs alone, I have access to the help
 function, but if both are loaded, I cannot access the help function.
 Can anyone shed a little light on what I may be doing wrong?

 Thanks,


 J_Dub
 ~~~~~
 Tuesday, November 8, 1994 8:09:26 am


 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 194       Wed Nov 09, 1994
RHFACTOR                     at 00:52 EST

Hi Dan,
     Just recently added NEODESK 4 to my my new 4 meg ST(e),  Syquest 270
system.  The flexability and ease at which I am able to  move around on the
system is great.
     I'm still at the early stages of laying out all the options  and settings
available, including custom designs of icons.
     A few problems have come up that I need help on:
  My 'basic' set-up includes WARP9 (3.80), XCONTROL, and NEO4 (2). I am not
multi-tasking, and have TOS 1.6.
     I should point out that with the limited time I've been using  this new
setup, I'm only providing minimal details.
     1. Entering the 'DIALOGS' setting.
        Clicked on 'Button Settings.
        Made changes to the default 'button' settings.
        Clicked 'OK' when finished.
          THEN
        Re-entered back into 'button settings'.
        After clicking 'OK', I got a REGISTER ERROR with 2 BOMBS
        that forced me out of NEODESK.

 There have been other situations that have 'brought out the bombs', but I have
not had time to isolate the circumstance.
 Just thought I'd make an early mention.

 Oh, by the way..... would or will it ever be possible for the desk icons size
to be expanded to 64x32 ??   It seems that the 'space' that the name already
spans that width.  It would be really nice (as an option) to be able to have
the extra area to make some wider icons.   I know that there are limits, but
I've seen bigger icons allowed.
 Just a request............

 Thanks !!!!!
    RHFactor
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 195       Wed Nov 09, 1994
A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt]       at 07:00 EST

Bman,

Use Geneva's hotkey settings to do the window closings. They work fine on
NeoDesk 4 windows, of all types. Alt-Esc is what I use, and it backs out one
level except at the root, where it closes the window.

Al
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 196       Wed Nov 09, 1994
A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt]       at 08:20 EST

J_Dub,

Beats me. The help function works fine in all three situations here.

Dan may have a clue.

Al
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 197       Wed Nov 09, 1994
GRIBNIF [Dan]                at 11:22 EST

rhfactor,

  That is a known problem in 002 which will very likely happen whenever you re-
enter either the Gadgets or Buttons dialogs. You have to quit NeoDesk and re-
run it in order to prevent the crash.

  Expanding the size of the icons would be a pretty major feat at this point.
Maybe in NeoDesk 5 <smile>.

J_Dub,

  When Geneva is present, NeoDesk calls Geneva's help viewer instead of using
its own. It sounds like that is what is failing. In your GEM.CNF, you should
have a line like:

  setenv SHOWHELP=c:\geneva\help\gnvahelp

  This should point to the correct location where gnvahelp is. The only other
reason it might be failing is if NeoDesk is being run as a single- tasking
application.

Bman,

  Right now I am working on the Geneva update. I can't really come up with a
good estimate about NeoDesk.

  If you want more extensions in the Filters, just use the long templates
instead of the pre-defined ones.

  I'll try the group winod wcolsing macro.

Dan
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 198       Wed Nov 09, 1994
B.DEWITT [Perfesser]         at 20:03 MST

Thanks, guys for the advice on how to get rid of those pesky floppy disk icons
that showed up unbidden on my desktop. Especially since the advice worked--
that's always the best kind, you know. >grin<

Th'Perfesser
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 199       Thu Nov 10, 1994
K.BALLANTYNE [Kit]           at 04:02 MST

Is there a way to permanately re-arrange the files in a group? I thought it
was just pick up a file name and lay it down where you want it, but that it
just launching the program I am dragging. I know this is probably covered very
carefully in the NeoDESK manual, but it's late, I look around and couldn't
find my answer.

Do I have to kill the group I made and then re-create it with the filenames
put in in the proper order?


 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 200       Thu Nov 10, 1994
GRIBNIF [Dan]                at 15:52 EST

Kit,

  You can drag the icons wherever you want them, you just have to make sure
you don't put them on top of other icons, because that will run the program
instead. You can also use Snap to Grid.

Dan
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 201       Thu Nov 10, 1994
Y.DUFRESNE [Papageno]        at 21:35 EST

Dan, Kit,

I believe kit refered to the text display in a group window, right? If so, you
can only sort by name or type. Select the one you wish in th VIEW menu.

It might be great to have a no sort there, Dan. We could use the reorder
fonction to place them the way we like. (I'd really like that, you kow...)

Yanick
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 202       Thu Nov 10, 1994
J.WILSON103 [J_Dub]          at 23:27 CST

 >J_Dub,
 >
 >  When Geneva is present, NeoDesk calls Geneva's help viewer instead of
using
 >its own. It sounds like that is what is failing. In your GEM.CNF, you should
 >have a line like:
 >
 >  setenv SHOWHELP=c:\geneva\help\gnvahelp
 >
 Dan,
  I finally got it to work after 'several' iterations if installing
 both. I had wanted both of these programs OFF my 'c' drive.
 Regardless, I can now access 'help', and I will continue my learning
 curve with these two fine programs. I just realized I have nearly as
 many Gribniff programs as CodeHead programs. Do not know what I do
 without either. Thanks.


 J_Dub
 ------------
Category 17,  Topic 4
Message 203       Fri Nov 11, 1994
A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt]       at 14:54 EST

Kit,

I'm not sure what you mean. Group items can be arranged any way you like. They
won't lanuch anything unless you double-click on them or use the other launch
techniques. As Dan said, if you overlap them, NeoDesk will do a drag 'n' drop
operation and run the app that is being dropped on, trying to pass the name of
the app that is being drugged ... i mean dropped. (I've been drugged, I guess,
having worked 31 days straight of 16 to 20 hours each on a project. Ouch! Too
much coffee....)

Al

 ------------